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Subject: How does BGG feel about libertarians? rss

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Galen
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Free speech, free Markets, Guns, Pot, and a copy of Atlas Shrugged for everyone!
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King of All Simians — Not a Mere Diplomat
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Libertarians are Republicans who smoke pot.
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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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They're a bunch of selfish, money-grubbing, free market-loving, atheist libertines who engage in deviant sex acts, reckless drug abuse, and have no moral compass. They respect neither God nor their fellow man, think they're better than everyone else and that they're always right, and probably want to form a theoretically perfect but inevitably dystopian society under the sea.

What's not to love?
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Leo Zappa
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Libertarians are OK, 'cept when they send you a bill for forgetting to return a book...






...oh....blush
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David Matchen
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desertfox2004 wrote:
Libertarians are OK, 'cept when they send you a bill for forgetting to return a book...






...oh....blush


On behalf of myself and Verkisto, ... (slap!)
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Steve Vondra
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I say
"This Year, Vote Discordian"


Fnord
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Galen
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le_cygne wrote:
They're a bunch of selfish, money-grubbing, free market-loving, atheist libertines who engage in deviant sex acts, reckless drug abuse, and have no moral compass. They respect neither God nor their fellow man, think they're better than everyone else and that they're always right, and probably want to form a theoretically perfect but inevitably dystopian society under the sea.

What's not to love?


A fan of Bioshock I see.
Quote:
Libertarians are Republicans who smoke pot.


I dont smoke port. I just dont think it's the end of the world if someone does.
 
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Leo Zappa
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cooler king wrote:
I say
"This Year, Vote Discordian"


Fnord


Hell, I'll do ya one better...this year, vote Accordion!

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Libertarians, like any other ideological movement, are destined to a future of either selling out everything that makes them unique, or squabbling incessantly amongst each other, followed by angry denouncements, excommunications, and crossing each other off their Christmas card list.

That being said, they're more fun and their books are more entertaining than 99% of Republicans / Democrats / Greens / Constitution / Socialist / etc. party members.

Best,
Kevin
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Bela's dead and Vampira won't talk
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galeninjapan wrote:

A fan of Bioshock I see.


Bioshock? I'm afraid I have no idea what you're talking about. But I wonder...

Is a man not entitled to the content of his post? "No," says the man in the Geeklist, "it belongs in the appropriate game's forum." "No," says the man in the forum, "it belongs in Chit-Chat." "No," says the man in Chit-Chat, "it belongs to a rabbit with a pancake on its head." I rejected those answers.

Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose RSP.

A forum where the partisan would not fear the censor, where the atheist or necrophiliac would not be bound by petty morality, where the great would not be constrained by the moderator; and with the content of your post, RSP can become your forum as well.
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Lynette
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cooler king wrote:
I say
"This Year, Vote Discordian"


Fnord


This made me think of a quote from a friend I use as as a sig line sometimes.

Quote:


If organized religion is the opiate of the masses, then disorganized religion is the marijuana of the lunatic fringe.

Ian Clysdale - A discordian
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Eric Knauer
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Some notable libertarian scholars:

-Robert Nozick
-Milton Friedman
-James Buchanan
-Ludwig Von Mises
-Friedrich Hayek
-Gary Becker
-Murray Rothbard
-Ronald Coase
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Kevin
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A great single-volume introduction to the American libertarian movement, its history and foundations, can be found in Radicals for Capitalism by Brian Doherty.

Covers everything from the pre-Mises/Hayek era (to which I was almost totally oblivious) to the modern day. It's a tome, at 752 pages, but I really liked it. A great look at a movement whose influence far outweighed its size, and full of crazy and passionate people.

Amazon link.
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Moshe Callen
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Since I'm told if I fit any US party, it'd have top be the Libertarian, I'll then take it I was being complimented .

dysjunct wrote:
Libertarians, like any other ideological movement, are destined to a future of either selling out everything that makes them unique, or squabbling incessantly amongst each other, followed by angry denouncements, excommunications, and crossing each other off their Christmas card list.

That being said, they're more fun and their books are more entertaining than 99% of Republicans / Democrats / Greens / Constitution / Socialist / etc. party members.

Best,
Kevin
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Eric Knauer
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Shushnik wrote:
eknauer wrote:
Some notable libertarian scholars:

-Robert Nozick
-Milton Friedman
-James Buchanan
-Ludwig Von Mises
-Friedrich Hayek
-Gary Becker
-Murray Rothbard
-Ronald Coase


I can see we're shooting fast and loose with the term 'notable' today


All of them are academic professors that have published large volumes of literature and/or major economic treatise and five are Nobel Laureate winners in economics. You consider this unnotable?


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Eric Knauer
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dysjunct wrote:
A great single-volume introduction to the American libertarian movement, its history and foundations, can be found in Radicals for Capitalism by Brian Doherty.

Covers everything from the pre-Mises/Hayek era (to which I was almost totally oblivious) to the modern day. It's a tome, at 752 pages, but I really liked it. A great look at a movement whose influence far outweighed its size, and full of crazy and passionate people.

Amazon link.


That book does look entertaining. It's interesting to note that the Austrian School (Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, etc.) seem to be the only economists to have seen the current housing/bank collapse coming a mile away. My Geeklist on this a month ago:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/33566
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As long as I'm recommending books, you'd probably also like The Myth of the Rational Voter by Bryan Caplan.

Caplan is a former Austrian (reasons for his change are in an essay on his website) and a gamer in his spare time (Champions RPG), FWIW.

One of the things I really liked about the Doherty book is how it filled in a large chunk of history that I wasn't aware of. I think most people who are interested in libertarianism kind of bounce around the prominent figures: Rothbard, von Mises, Rand (who never mentions anyone else in a positive light if she can help it); and the really curious read Spooner, Tucker, maybe David Friedman etc. But that still leaves out huge chunks of the development of the philosophy/movement between the US Civil War and the rise of the Austrian school. It made for a good read, especially if (as it seems) you're a fellow-traveler.

Best,
Kevin
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Eric Knauer
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I'm a fan of Caplan especially his lesser known anarcho-capitalist (the libertarian faction I am partial to and find the most consistent and compelling) writings. He gave a talk at Cato recently about his new book:

http://www.cato.org/event.php?eventid=3904

I just finished reading the new biography on Mises by Jorg Guido Hulsmann, The Last Knight of Liberalism, a mere 1100 pages.


I'll definitely be getting Doherty's book, thanks for reminding me about it.


 
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In the modern American meaning of the term, I distrust them. Although I find the basic idea appealing, their almost universal obsession with certain topics while ignoring others, plus the fact that I'm not aware of any libertarian who wouldn't profit (in a material way) from the idea, makes them look suspicious to me. How can them support such a controlling and State-bound institution as money?

In the Spanish meaning of the term, closely related to anarchism, I support it.
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Eric Knauer
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Quote:
In the modern American meaning of the term, I distrust them. Although I find the basic idea appealing, their almost universal obsession with certain topics while ignoring others, plus the fact that I'm not aware of any libertarian who wouldn't profit (in a material way) from the idea, makes them look suspicious to me. How can them support such a controlling and State-bound institution as money?


This last sentence is a little confusing grammatically but many if not most libertarians oppose the Federal Reserve and support a free market in regards to money.

Quote:
I'll go step further ... the problem w/libertarians is that they still ultimately fall back on the state (like a crutch) to define and enforce "rights."


-Minarchist libertarians- no to define and yes to enforce
-Anarcho-capitalist libertarians- no to define and no to enforce
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Eric Knauer
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JonJacob wrote:

I'm also not so sure that I would describe Ayn Rand as a libertarian, didn't she refer to herself as an objectivist?

- J


lol, there's a wikipedia entry about this issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_and_Objectivism
 
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Eric Knauer
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JonJacob wrote:
eknauer wrote:
JonJacob wrote:

I'm also not so sure that I would describe Ayn Rand as a libertarian, didn't she refer to herself as an objectivist?

- J


lol, there's a wikipedia entry about this issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_and_Objectivism


That's a decent article. It confirms my opinion. I can't be an objectivist because I'm a theist. I can be a libertarian though. Thanks for pointing that out.

- J


No problem. And if you want to read an excellent essay that IMO demonstrates why Rand's political philosophy was compatible with the libertarian anarchists, see:

http://www.anthonyflood.com/smithrationalanarchism.htm
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Eric Knauer
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Quote:
Let's pick at some of your hypens ... devil

some questions: should the state exist?


If you define "state" as an institution having exclusive legal jurisdiction over a geographical area without consent and one that forbids peaceful secession, then no.

Quote:
do "rights" (in general abstract or particular) exist?


Yes, and while I disagree with Rand on a few issues, I think her essay on rights is pretty good.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=arc_ayn_rand...


Quote:
is constitutionalism good or bad?


Depends how you define that term. Generally, it means "established laws or customs", which is good, but if you are being more specific as obeying the laws of the modern state regardless of what laws exist, then bad.


Quote:
what role does "freedom" play in human communities?


Does or should? It should be a paramount role of course. Again, I'm with Rand on this one, "Freedom, in a political context, means freedom from government coercion. It does not mean freedom from the landlord, or freedom from the employer, or freedom from the laws of nature which do not provide men with automatic prosperity. It means freedom from the coercive power of the state—and nothing else."


Quote:
Those questions aside ...

Eric you do realize that the Libertarian Party is only a callow shadow of the links you're providing. The Libertarian Party, as currently constituted, is, at the end of day just another statist sock puppet. Most people's exposure to libertarianism is the Libertarian Party.


Yes, I realize that. I never mean to refer to the Libertarian party but to the ideas in general.



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eknauer wrote:
This last sentence is a little confusing grammatically


Sorry about that.

Quote:
but many if not most libertarians oppose the Federal Reserve and support a free market in regards to money.


But the idea of money itself is linked to the State. Money needs a reference value, and its universal use is granted and enforced by the State. I don't know how is it in the USA, but here it is even a crime to destroy money.
 
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Eric Knauer
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Quote:
But the idea of money itself is linked to the State. Money needs a reference value, and its universal use is granted and enforced by the State. I don't know how is it in the USA, but here it is even a crime to destroy money.


I agree that's the way it currently is but the origins of money (barter) go back hundreds of thousands of years and was not an invention of government but the market.
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