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Subject: All Colors to 18 is "Very Rare"? rss

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Jeremy Yoder
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The rulebook says in the "very rare" event a player gets all colors to 18, he instantly wins. I've been able to do this 2 times out of the 8 or so games I've played, and I've seen 1 other person do it. Is it truly that rare? Or is it simply that the people I play with are focusing more on scoring and not enough on blocking?
 
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Normally I score between two and four 18s in a game, with one colour or two languishing with a score about 10. I have never seen anyone get all colours to 18 and can't envision a case where that would be possible; we play very aggressively.
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Larry Welborn
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JYoder wrote:

The rulebook says in the "very rare" event a player gets all colors to 18, he instantly wins. I've been able to do this 2 times out of the 8 or so games I've played, and I've seen 1 other person do it. Is it truly that rare? Or is it simply that the people I play with are focusing more on scoring and not enough on blocking?


It really depends on the type of play. When I play with my children, we routine win with all 18s, but there tends to be very little blocking. In a game with adults only, the scores tend to be much lower as the play is more cutthroat.
 
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Jim Patterson
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Totally depends on how much blocking there is. I have had a game end at all-18s, sadly not with me getting it (but at least it was a new player and a nongamer).
 
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Paul DeStefano
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I've never seen an all 18 win.

And I play pretty much every week.

Methinks your opponents need to learn how to block.
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1603-1714
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I've only done it once and the game in which I did it included a couple new players. Everyone was focused on getting as many points as they could instead of limiting the score of others. So yes, it is rare but is more likely to happen if the style of play allows it to happen. I think with more experience, for both yourself and your opponents, you will see it occur much less frequently.

On a side note, I also once had a 2-player game where I kept another player from getting any points in one color. Of course, once I realized it was a possibility near over halfway through the game, that became my entire focus. That too me seems much less likely to happen again.
 
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Billy McBoatface
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I'm with everybody else. Accoring to BGG, I've played 22 times - that's probably accurate. I've never even seen somebody get all their markers to 18.

You need to find opponent who know what blocking is and why it is important.
 
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Larry Welborn
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cagriggs wrote:
I've only done it once and the game in which I did it included a couple new players. Everyone was focused on getting as many points as they could instead of limiting the score of others. So yes, it is rare but is more likely to happen if the style of play allows it to happen. I think with more experience, for both yourself and your opponents, you will see it occur much less frequently.

On a side note, I also once had a 2-player game where I kept another player from getting any points in one color. Of course, once I realized it was a possibility near over halfway through the game, that became my entire focus. That too me seems much less likely to happen again.


How is that possible with even minimally competent play? Did the other player not understand the scoring?
 
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Billy McBoatface
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Larry Welborn wrote:
How is that possible with even minimally competent play? Did the other player not understand the scoring?
Once the board is 1/2 full, if a certain color isn't available *ANYWHERE*, and your opponent hasn't gotten any points in that color yet, it isn't too hard to cover up a red, for example, every time your opponent puts one down.

Hence, at end of game, opponent still has no red. If you succeed, and you have at least one red, you win! So not only is it fun to thwart your opponent like this, but it can be a good strategy also.
 
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wmshub wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
How is that possible with even minimally competent play? Did the other player not understand the scoring?
Once the board is 1/2 full, if a certain color isn't available *ANYWHERE*, and your opponent hasn't gotten any points in that color yet, it isn't too hard to cover up a red, for example, every time your opponent puts one down.

Hence, at end of game, opponent still has no red. If you succeed, and you have at least one red, you win! So not only is it fun to thwart your opponent like this, but it can be a good strategy also.


Yes, that's basically what happened. In the early game, my opponent was getting a lot of high scores in a few colors and ignored others, thinking he could get them later. After that point, I tried to block him from getting green each move and managed to be successful. Every time he tried to green on the board and I managed to cover it up every time, except once. But I was helped by an unlucky redraw where he did not get any green and by a few well-time Ingeniouses (is that a word?) which allowed me to play a second piece to fully block green. It was a fun win.
 
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SO while Player B is working to block player A, what are players C and D doing? It seems that Player B might be able to stay one step ahead of Player A by such an approach but it allows C and D to race ahead.

I've played Genial about 15 times or so and I'd reckon I've seen 3 or 4 games end with oen player getting all 18's. I hear people talk about a blocking strategy but I've never quite understood its value. A player could work to thwart another player in just about any game but that just opens up the game for the other players.

Brian
 
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Larry Welborn
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wmshub wrote:
Larry Welborn wrote:
How is that possible with even minimally competent play? Did the other player not understand the scoring?
Once the board is 1/2 full, if a certain color isn't available *ANYWHERE*, and your opponent hasn't gotten any points in that color yet, it isn't too hard to cover up a red, for example, every time your opponent puts one down.

Hence, at end of game, opponent still has no red. If you succeed, and you have at least one red, you win! So not only is it fun to thwart your opponent like this, but it can be a good strategy also.


Unless the player has played the tile in the corner or next to other tiles, you can't block him. Each tile section can be touched by 5 other tiles. So, as long as the original tile is placed so that at least 3 faces are still exposed, you can't block him. In a multi-player game, I suppose if everyone ganged up on a player, it might be possible to shut them out of a color.
 
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Arthur
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I've played 47 games, and have never seen anyone win with all-18s.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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Larry Welborn wrote:
... it might be possible to shut them out of a color.


The real problem would come in making sure that none of the tiles you place have the color he needs and that you can immediately block any tiles he lays with that color before his next turn.
 
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Paul DeStefano
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JYoder wrote:
Or is it simply that the people I play with are focusing more on scoring and not enough on blocking?


The more I think about this the more I wonder if you are scoring incorrectly.

Straight lines only, not counting the placed tile, right?
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It can be rare. I agree, it does depend on who you play with. One 4p game, I was playing against 2 newbies and 1 vet (who wasn't a huge fan of abstract games, but didn't object to playing noneoftheless), I did manage to score all 18 about when the board was 85% full. Throughout the game, I noticed about 6 opportunities for others to block me. 3 of those wouldn't really have worked well, as I had alternatives if those parts of the board were blocked. We had 2 colors of 2 different regions. Probably wouldn't have scored as high, but would have found a way to boost my low scoring colors anyways

On 2 occassions, I was surprised the experienced player didn't block me, but he mentioned for one of those cases, it was between a bunch of red and a bunch of purple, both of which he needed. If he'd put a tile on the red area, I would've been blocked off from red, what I really needed, but he didn't have any red tiles on him. He also needed purple, so he put a tile down on purple to boost his score rather than helping.

people should be playing to block. The most obvious situation is if you have a straight line of 8 reds, then it definately helps to claim that and then make sure the other color plugs up the endpoint of that line liek so. The X's are the tiles that were just placed down.


O
OOOOOOOX
X


Otherwise, I've seen games where all the colors were together. People either get nasty, or there's a sort of implied agreement that they'll have a clean game this round and may the race to the high score quickest, or as close to it as possible win the game
 
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bwridge wrote:
SO while Player B is working to block player A, what are players C and D doing? It seems that Player B might be able to stay one step ahead of Player A by such an approach but it allows C and D to race ahead.

I've played Genial about 15 times or so and I'd reckon I've seen 3 or 4 games end with oen player getting all 18's. I hear people talk about a blocking strategy but I've never quite understood its value. A player could work to thwart another player in just about any game but that just opens up the game for the other players.


You aren't blocking *one* player; you're blocking *every* other player.

Yes, if you specifically target one player, the others will gain on you both.

Rather than doing that, you should be shutting down the board, making it so that no colors are able to score big, especially when you can make a medium-to-large score while doing so. (Like the capping the long line example above.)

I've played over 60 games of Ingenious, and won last year's WBC Ingenious tournament, as well as several local tournaments; I've never seen anyone get to all 18s. It just doesn't happen with competent play by most or all at the table.

Even if everyone is playing "open" and "nice", at some point it should(!) become obvious that someone is in the lead, and needs to be shut down; enlightened self-interest takes care of things at that point.

Once people actually understand the game, its tactics, and how scoring synergy works, the game gets much tighter and better. Until that point, well, you should see the faces of people used to looser play when I choose not to score any points on the first turn... ;)

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Randall Bart
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The second game I ever played my score was a 16 and five 18s. I also had a game where I got two 17s and four 18s. Both of these games had lots of newbies. With good play you should get blocked in some colors. I have gotten the instant win at http://ingenious.4r.st/ but I've never seen it with live players.
 
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Jeremy Yoder
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Geosphere wrote:
The more I think about this the more I wonder if you are scoring incorrectly. Straight lines only, not counting the placed tile, right?

We're definitely scoring it correctly.


ackmondual wrote:
Otherwise, I've seen games where all the colors were together. People either get nasty, or there's a sort of implied agreement that they'll have a clean game this round and may the race to the high score quickest, or as close to it as possible win the game

As I've read everyone's replies, I believe the latter is what most people are doing that I've played. About half the games have been with non-gamers who enjoy the easy-to-learn mechanics and socialize a lot. Now that I think about it, in my last game, I was probably the only one even looking at other people's scores.

I'm not sure how good the AI is at www.marquand.net, but this morning I scored five 18's and one 15 at that site. Do those bots generally play in a "friendly" manner?
 
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JYoder wrote:
I'm not sure how good the AI is at www.marquand.net, but this morning I scored five 18's and one 15 at that site. Do those bots generally play in a "friendly" manner?

They vary. Some games they block while other games they only try to maximize their own score.
 
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Gary Boyd
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We just played with our kids for the first time today and our daughter got all 18s except one 17. I guess we just didn't grok the defensive strategy. We were all focusing on our own scores so much we didn't really try to block each other.

I was unsure if we were playing correctly, but from the faqs that I've reading and rereading the rules we were playing correctly, just not strategically.

EDIT: Just noticed I resurrected the hell out of this thread. There wasn't even any meat on its bones.
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