Mark Evans
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ASL rules!!!arrrh

~Mark
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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I've seen this at my FLGS and it is very tempting. It that box is packed with stuff! But I want to try before I buy.
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Dan Poole
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I think this is an incredible game so far. As the OP nicely outlined, the intertwined actions/reactions really make this game shine
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David Gray
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This is apples and oranges with ASL, one is a squad level game, the other is platoon/company. Better comparisons would be with Avalanche's Panzer Grenadier and the old Panzerblitz system.
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Richard Savage
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David, Conflict of Heroes is a squad-level game, I hate to disappoint you. It's so much better (for me) than ASL that I'll soon be putting my
ASL collection on Ebay, but I'm going to try and hurry up because once the wargaming community gets ahold of CoH, I have a feeling that a lot of ASL'ers are going to be doing the same thing. I know, people are already checking to see what games I have, I don't have any listed. But if you ARE interested in ASLSK's 1, 2, and 3. Yanks, Gung Ho, Beyond Valor, Valor of the Guards, Pegasus Bridge, Solitaire ASL and Paratrooper as a one bundle deal, drop me a line, that's how serious I am!
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David Gray
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Really? The review states it is platoon/company...
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William Crispin
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I really like this game and I give it all credit for being inovative and making good use of abstraction. I will be buying more of this series if more is produced.

I do NOT see this as a replacement for ASL. This is a very different level of abstraction. You are welcome to sell your ASL if you want. At the end of the day I doubt this is going to diminish the amount of ASL that MMP sells. While there may be some ASLers selling their ASL stuff I suspect that will be far outweighed by newer gamers buying into CoH and then feeling comfortable with that looking towards more detailed squad level games like ASL.
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Gary Libby
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Thank you for writing the review. I have a feeling you are about to bring on the wrath of the ASL community though.

I am not an ASL player, but know some and can't imagine they will be dumping their copies in droves. They may buy Conflict of Heroes and love it, but I think there will be times when they will want to Conflict of Heroes and times when they want to play their beloved ASL with all its rules and chrome.

In the same respect my copy of Conflict of Heroes came in this week and while it looks great and from the reading of the rules seems great I will not be getting rid of my copy Combat Commander, as I love that game too much to conceive of not wanting to play it again.
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Chadwik
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graydo wrote:
Really? The review states it is platoon/company...

The review is incorrect. CoH's units are squads, weapon teams and individual vehicles.

The OP may have meant that the scenarios are at platoon/company scale, which they generally are.
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Yes, Scale to me is what size of a force you are commanding, not units.

Sorry for not being clear on that, but I have made that clear in other 'debates' here on BGG.

Each Scenario is anything from a Platoon sized action to a reinforced Company, exactly like Squad Leader/ASL.
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crazyyog wrote:
Thank you for writing the review. I have a feeling you are about to bring on the wrath of the ASL community though.


Yes, I expect that.

Such a controversy will attract more eyes to this review, increasing publicity for this fabulous game.

I truly feel this way - I am an old SL/COI/COD player and was dissapointed with GIAV and then ASL. Disappointing because they violated what John Hill was after, ripped him off, and created a bloated system.

SL was the first wargame I ever saw, and the second I played, and we played them hard in HS - fond memories and great times.

After I got back into the hobby, I got to play some ASL.

ASL is a very good game, and I own the SKs, and a friend has all of ASL - and he is the one who bought CoH.

We simple don't have the patience to wade through that Pile of Chit, and its copious rulebook.

ASL is a lifestyle choice that I know will not get dented by this for those players, but easily overtakes ASL for those who variety game like we do.

As for the new wargamer, ASL is about unapproachable and seen as an often onerous task; CoH returns us to the intent John Hill had, and provides us a crowning achievement in the New Golden Age of wargaming.
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Stokey Brown
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Gilbert
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As a voice of opposition, I'm one person that thinks Conflict of Heroes is inferior to ASL in almost every way, and I'm not even much of an ASL fan.
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I'd like to see a comparison review by a hardcore ASler.

I am not hardcore ASL (was hard core Sl/COI/COD at one time), nor with any other system; look at my collection and my plays, and you will find we are genre all over the place in our gaming. CoH works very well for the spicey wargamer.

[Edited as I see there is at least one comparing it to ASL SK.]
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Richard Savage
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Stokey, have you even played CoH? Now I'm not knocking ASL'ers at all, I was one at one time, had Peiper I and II, Red Barricades, etc. CoH just gives me the same fun at a 1/12th of the rules is all. I've shown 2
of my wargaming buddies CoH, and they both love it. My 2nd buddy, who's a grognard, played Scenario 3 of CoH with me three times in a row, we ended up looking at the clock and it was 4:15AM! It's been a long while since a wargame's had that "where'd the time go" effect on me. As for my ASL collection? I've already had one nibble, drop me a line and make some offers guys, I'm not trying to gouge anyone, but I do want semi-decent return on my investment, and I'd rather see it go to someone on here that I know will really play it!
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David desJardins
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Burlingame
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crazyyog wrote:
I am not an ASL player, but know some and can't imagine they will be dumping their copies in droves. They may buy Conflict of Heroes and love it, but I think there will be times when they will want to Conflict of Heroes and times when they want to play their beloved ASL with all its rules and chrome.


And there's nothing wrong with that. Different people like different things (even the same people sometimes like different things at different times). But so many people want to proclaim one particular game "the best".
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Stokey Brown
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kemosavage wrote:
Stokey, have you even played CoH?


Surprising as it might seem, I have.
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Randall Shaw
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"While there may be some ASLers selling their ASL stuff I suspect that will be far outweighed by newer gamers buying into CoH and then feeling comfortable with that looking towards more detailed squad level games like ASL."

Perhaps but I'd strongly urge those CoH to ASL players to 'kick the tires' on ASL before spending money that would be better spent on CoH products. At the very least I think CoH players will be very disappointed in the time they spend doing other things than gaming in ASL and will definitely miss the interactivity of CoH.
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David desJardins
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Sokadr wrote:
At the very least I think CoH players will be very disappointed in the time they spend doing other things than gaming in ASL and will definitely miss the interactivity of CoH.


I can understand why you would be disappointed, but how can you judge whether other people would be disappointed? Some of them will just like that alternative better.
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Richard Savage
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He said that he "thought" that other people would be disappointed David, that's called an "opinion."
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Randall Shaw
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If you can understand why I'd be disappointerd then you can understand how I can envision other CoH gamers being disappointed. It's reasonable to assume the same qualities I find attractive in CoH will prove to be the same for them. These are definitely not qualities ASL possesses (relatively quick playing time, few rules, not spending over much time perusing those rules, fantastic interactivity, playing the game not the rules, getting into arguments/debates over rules interpretations-true, its early but I have't seen much of this last so far where CoH is concerned).

Will some CoH players want to go ASL? I'm sure but...why?

Update: Yes, the word 'think' was used. Thanks, Richard!
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David desJardins
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Sokadr wrote:
It's reasonable to assume the same qualities I find attractive in CoH will prove to be the same for them.


All of them, or some of them? It's certainly reasonable to assume that some people have similar preferences to you. Just not that they all do.
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Richard Savage
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*sigh* here goes David on one of his exetentialist diatribes, he counseled Clinton during Monicagate, David was the one that came up with the famous "it depends on what the definition of "is" is defense!
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Randall Shaw
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Richard: Yeah, I'm familiar with David's style, both from here and Consim.

David: You did read this part of my last post, yes?

"Will some CoH players want to go ASL? I'm sure but...why?"

In no part of my post do I assume to speak for all CoH players.
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Don Cooper
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ASL is far more detailed than Conflict of Heroes. ASL is the wargamer's wargame. It is also the oldest wargame system that is currently in print, which says something about its staying power. That said to really learn the game one has to find a ASLer to teach you if you want to learn. It's not the type of game that one picks up the Rulebook and Beyond Valor and begins playing scenerios that night. ASL is mostly for rules lawyers and hardcore ASLers, who have been playing the game since its start with ASL in the mid seventies. Try making a "gamey" move in ASL and you will get dice tower handed to you. ASL players get a kick out of discussing rules as much as they get a kick out of playing the game. It is a totally different gaming experience. In ASL, wargamers are striving for perfection, which we all know is never possible and it can be as frustrating as it is fascinating. It is a testament to the ASL system that people always want to compare game systems to it. Just watching a game by two well learned ASLers is a sight to behold. It is intellectual jujitsu.

Conflict of Heroes is basic and fast. It is not as deep as ASL. I would not call it simple, however. It's only relationship to the Squad Leader system is the geomorphic boards. While ASL places a stress on detail, CoH stresses game play. I have played both games and currently on my seventh game of CoH. CoH is easier to play solitaire that ASL, only because the rules in ASL are a bit steep even for one player. ASL uses on board leaders, which CoH does not. This goes to the level of detail in the game. I like CoH very much and think it is more a singular game than a relation to any other game, including Combat Commander another game system that it has been referred too.

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Randall Shaw
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"ASL is the wargamer's wargame." "It's not the type of game that one picks up the Rulebook and Beyond Valor and begins playing scenerios that night. ASL is mostly for rules lawyers and hardcore ASLers, who have been playing the game since its start with ASL in the mid seventies."

ASL is an aficionado's wargame. Future CoH to ASL players take note.

"It is also the oldest wargame system that is currently in print, which says something about its staying power."

And it might also say something about the ASL Cult's willingness to buy all things ASL.

"ASL players get a kick out of discussing rules as much as they get a kick out of playing the game."

That must be the reason I could never get excited about ASL. I rarely, rarely get as much of a kick out of discussing rules as I do playing the game. Again, CoH to ASL players...

"It is intellectual jujitsu."

This could be said of any game (or competition, for that matter) between equally skilled and experienced opponents. However, it is still a bit hyperbolic for my taste. cool

"It's only relationship to the Squad Leader system is the geomorphic boards."

Plus topic and scale of course.

"It is a testament to the ASL system that people always want to compare game systems to it."

Not so much a testament as a requirement. ASL, until recently, has been the recognized top-dog in squad-level WW II games. Not giving it at least lip service could leave the poster open to charges of not having done his job properly, especially from the ASLers.
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