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Subject: Appolgies and a question rss

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Jeffrey Inks
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I was recently involved an a math trade that well. I shipped my games expeditiously and recieved mine likewise. During the feedback I left a neutral trade rating for a game I shipped with no comments. Apparently that is as good a negative feedback due to the fact that I recieved a sarcastic 'thank you' from the recipiant of MY game and MY neutral feedback.

If I have been in any way wrong, I would like to appologize publicly and am asking you, our esteemed colleagues, what the proper etiquette is in leaving feedback for a game I sent to someone else.

If neutral is viewed as a negative, then should we not eliminate the possiblity of misinterpretation.

Or, quite possibly, I did not read all of the small print in the math trade policy and proceedures section.

Thank you for your time,

Jeff Inks

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Jeffrey D Myers
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I always give positive feedback because they were at least cooperative in getting their address to you! I just put "Math Trade" in the comments section of the feedback.
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Scott Bartel
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Quote:
If you used the trade manager, be sure to leave appropriate feedback after you receive your game. There is some debate about whether you should leave feedback to the person you sent the game; The most common opinion is that you should generally leave positive feedback to the recipient unless there are serious problems with their communication.


Typically, if there were no issues with the trade, positive feedback is the norm. Negative feedback, IMO should only be left if the party misrepresented their item or didn't send it at all and no effort was made to remedy the problem. Neutral feedback should only be left if there were issues involved in the trade and the party eventually made up for it... i.e. Ridiculously late shipping or a misrepresented item and an agreement was met to appease the unpleased party.

In MTs, it is common for a party who sent their item to wait until the receiver leaves positive feedback and then the sending party reciprocates with positive feedback. If you don't feel comfortable leaving positive feedback when the other party did nothing for you, then don't leave feedback at all.

Neutral feedback is looked upon as negative. There should be a reason if you leave someone neutral feedback. It's hard for someone to build up a trade rating, and thus trust in the community, if they keep getting a zero for a trade.

Edited to add quote from the Wiki.
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Larry Rice
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It is best to never use the neutral feedback. Either report the experience as positive or negative. It avoids all the confusion associated with neutral feedback. I've had this happen to me a couple times, but I try not to get too upset with it - most times it is someone new. Of course, since I have a ton of feedback, it isn't potentially as damaging either.
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David Matchen
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Neutral feedback is a bit of a misnomer. As a rule of thumb (by custom), you should only not leave positive feedback if something went wrong with the trade. Neutral feedback is a ding to the other party, and, depending on the auction site, may be tantamount to negative feedback.
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Jeffrey Inks
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hard lesson learned.

thanks for everyone's replies.

is there a way I can adjust my feedback? get an admin to change it?

 
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Jim Patterson
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So I've now learned that neutral means negative and that negative also means negative and that people get positive feedback for doing nothing for me personally and that positive still means positive but perhaps also nothing.
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Steve Bachman
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jpat wrote:
So I've now learned that neutral means negative and that negative also means negative and that people get positive feedback for doing nothing for me personally and that positive still means positive but perhaps also nothing.

[rant]
Yes, and this ridiculous coercion of Math Traders to leave "positive feedback OR ELSE!" is what leads to the confusion and to questionable traders getting inflated feedback ratings. For evidence of such, follow the latest MT controversy surrounding Kwebec.

There is no good lesson to be learned from this, because the OP did not make a mistake by leaving neutral feedback if that is all that he felt was earned. The unfortunate lesson here is that peer pressure is alive and well on BGG and many Math Traders are plain and simple bullies.
[/rant]
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Albert
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Ward wrote:

[rant]
Yes, and this ridiculous coercion of Math Traders to leave "positive feedback OR ELSE!" is what leads to the confusion and to questionable traders getting inflated feedback ratings. For evidence of such, follow the latest MT controversy surrounding Kwebec.

There is no good lesson to be learned from this, because the OP did not make a mistake by leaving neutral feedback if that is all that he felt was earned. The unfortunate lesson here is that peer pressure is alive and well on BGG and many Math Traders are plain and simple bullies.
[/rant]


Hand over your lunch money and I'll forget you ever said that.
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Ward wrote:
jpat wrote:
So I've now learned that neutral means negative and that negative also means negative and that people get positive feedback for doing nothing for me personally and that positive still means positive but perhaps also nothing.

[rant]
Yes, and this ridiculous coercion of Math Traders to leave "positive feedback OR ELSE!" is what leads to the confusion and to questionable traders getting inflated feedback ratings. For evidence of such, follow the latest MT controversy surrounding Kwebec.

There is no good lesson to be learned from this, because the OP did not make a mistake by leaving neutral feedback if that is all that he felt was earned. The unfortunate lesson here is that peer pressure is alive and well on BGG and many Math Traders are plain and simple bullies.
[/rant]


Ward does have a point. If it became the norm to get neutral feedback for the receiving side of a math trade than the stigma would go away? Neutral should mean neutral.
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VETRHUS of Rogaland
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We have rehashed this over and over, but nothing will ever change the fact that neutral feedback is the absence of positive.

It's less than positive. Less than positive feedback isn't the same as "null feedback" no matter how you slice it.

And with the precedent set in the online community by eBay, neutral has been permanently stigmatized. That isn't something to bitch about, it is something to understand.

The reality is that until there is a non-retaliation protection here or there that neutral will be the way some folks indicate their wish to declare that the trade went wrong. That means that the null neutrals will be equated (unfairly) with that same reasoning.

If we were a closed community of users who didn't see turnover in our number (like kwebec, lol) counts, then we may be able to do our own thing, but the reality is that we are part of the larger e-commerce world.

It's like trying to fight a battle to reclame the word "gay" as "happy" because you resent its use elsewhere. That train has left the station.
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Jeffrey Inks
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diehard4life wrote:
We have rehashed this over and over, but nothing will ever change the fact that neutral feedback is the absence of positive.

It's less than positive. Less than positive feedback isn't the same as "null feedback" no matter how you slice it.

And with the precedent set in the online community by eBay, neutral has been permanently stigmatized. That isn't something to bitch about, it is something to understand.

The reality is that until there is a non-retaliation protection here or there that neutral will be the way some folks indicate their wish to declare that the trade went wrong. That means that the null neutrals will be equated (unfairly) with that same reasoning.

If we were a closed community of users who didn't see turnover in our number (like kwebec, lol) counts, then we may be able to do our own thing, but the reality is that we are part of the larger e-commerce world.

It's like trying to fight a battle to reclame the word "gay" as "happy" because you resent its use elsewhere. That train has left the station.


I understand this and have a tendency to forget where I am (the WWW). I have no ill intentions tward anyone and do not expect others to have any as well, however off the mark I may be.(no, I am not looking for beach front propery)

There used to be a thumbs down system around here if I recall correctly?

Read the instructions, don't post in a hurry and don't put whole eggs in the microwave (and don't turn on said microwave).
 
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Steve Bachman
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diehard4life wrote:
And with the precedent set in the online community by eBay, neutral has been permanently stigmatized. That isn't something to bitch about, it is something to understand.

...

If we were a closed community of users who didn't see turnover in our number (like kwebec, lol) counts, then we may be able to do our own thing, but the reality is that we are part of the larger e-commerce world.

So, we have to use an obtuse and broken system because others have? eBay has changed their system but BGG can't? Bullcrap! We're a niche community - we can be different.

Do you stick to Monopoly and Scrabble because of their overwhelming popularity amongst the rest (non-BGGers) of the world? I doubt you'd be here if you did, but your argument favors a world of games limited to what Wal-Mart, Toys R Us, and Target stocks. I'll pass on that closed-mindedness, thank you.
 
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Scott Bartel
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Ward wrote:
So, we have to use an obtuse and broken system because others have? eBay has changed their system but BGG can't? Bullcrap! We're a niche community - we can be different.


I don't think his point was ever the fact that the BGG trade system can't be altered. He was describing the effects of the word 'neutral' in a feedback situation and how it's use has affected the world because of eBay and has trickled down to us in the BGG trade system.

The neutral feedback option should be eliminated completely. The trade was either good or bad.
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Mike Pranno
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homiefud wrote:
The neutral feedback option should be eliminated completely. The trade was either good or bad.

In your eyes, maybe, but I disagree. There are lots of opportunity for middle ground. Timeliness being the biggest one.

What I would like to see is a additional feature added to the Trade Manager that would allow a trade to be marked as a Math Trade. And in those trades, only one user (the receiver) would be allowed to give feedback.

PRO:
It pretty much eliminates this whole discussion.
It does not errantly inflate what should be your actual trade rating.
It does not allow for retaliatory feedback.

CON:
It does not allow for retaliatory feedback.
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Chad Bergeron
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Yeah, I got burned on that one too once. My opinion was, and is, that I cannot judge someone as a trader if all they did was receive, and not actually trade. In the interest of full honesty and disclosure, I was in the habit of rating such transactions as neutral: I had no opinion. I was summarily strung up in the forums, and even had people making near-promises to never trade with me, or list my game in their math trade want lists, because of my ethical and honest nature. (Ok, I'm adding a little more sarcasm than needed, but not much more.) I have since had my misconceptions corrected. In this society, the norms are different, and denying someone their expected payment in reputation currency can have dire consequences. I must say though, it strikes me as odd to pay someone to get something from you. I have, however, bent to the customs and now award positive feedback at all plausible opportunities.

Anyone who has been with eBay since the beginning (Member since 1996!) can recount many stories of the varied world of rating traders.
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Ryan Gatti
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jpat wrote:
So I've now learned that neutral means negative and that negative also means negative and that people get positive feedback for doing nothing for me personally and that positive still means positive but perhaps also nothing.

It's far worse than that. Once you just assume that all reasonable feedback is positive (and all neutral/negative feedback is a red flag to never trade with someone who has left non-positive feedback for fear that they might taint your pristine positive feedback record), then you get into the meta-game of over-analyzing just how positive, neutral, or negative the positive feedback really is, and what people are really saying, despite the positive feedback indicator.

You can't reason with the mob, but you might be able to distract them. And if that fails, try to blend in until someone else stumbles and gets consumed. Oh, wait, that's a zombie mob . . .
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