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I will be playing the game for the first time later this week, and for the first time noticed an oddity.

The Flank Defensive DR for each unit is above the Front Defensive DR on each counter. This is odd in two ways:
1) Its counterintuitive, and contrary to other games I'm familiar with (I guess that's only the Squad Leader series).
2) It contradicts the layout of the CoH counters. On the CoH counters, the 'front' of the unit is the top of the unit. The 'back' of the unit is the bottom. Yet the 'front' armor/defense modifier is on the bottom, and the 'flank' (side and back) armor/defense modifer is on the top.

Was there a reason for this layout?

Steve
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Richard Savage
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Steve, yeah I felt the same way, it just takes some getting used to is all, but I agree with your assessment that the numbers should be reversed. Don't let that stop you from enjoying a really great game system though!
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Adam D.
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I had the exact same reaction. Weird that no playtesters mentioned it (or they did and it was too late to change I suppose).

side note: "playtesters" shows up as incorrectly spelled. Can we just vote on BGG that this is actually a word
 
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Kevin Reynolds
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I think the idea for this is that the primary attributes for the units were to be on the corners of the counters. Most encounters will probably be on the front of the counter unless there is no way to swap facing before being attacked so the front DR is in the corner. This also makes sense with the hit counter modifiers as well.

I was at first a little bothered by this, but I got over it quickly.
 
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Matt Harvey
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presence wrote:
I think the idea for this is that the primary attributes for the units were to be on the corners of the counters.


Absolutely, four corners made perfect sense when i first saw it.

The REAL question is why HIGHLIGHT the lower flank value, drawing visual attention to it every time you look at a unit on the board?

Most of the time during a game, you're looking for the front arc value, and my eye always is drawn to that highlighted flank value first.

I've been curious about this design decision for awhile now- maybe I've missed something glaringly obvious

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Luca Iennaco
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Paraguay wrote:
2) It contradicts the layout of the CoH counters. On the CoH counters, the 'front' of the unit is the top of the unit. The 'back' of the unit is the bottom. Yet the 'front' armor/defense modifier is on the bottom, and the 'flank' (side and back) armor/defense modifer is on the top.

I had the same reaction.
They should have been inverted.
 
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Chris Montgomery
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I don't really care. :-) The game is glorious, and this is really, really stretching it. All in good fun, though.

Chris Montgomery
 
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uwe eickert
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In the very early editions, the front and flank ratings were side by side like the FP. But as the counter design progressed, the stats were too bunched and I just slipped one up. If I had to do it over, I would probably reverse the two. But what can I do now. (NO, I can't just send everyone new counters!)
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Richard Savage
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son of a.....
 
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Colin Houghton
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Uwe

it's all good... don't change the counters even if you could. I don't like the shape of the bishops in my chess set, or the fact that as I get older, rules and counters (CoH excepted) seem to use smaller print, or that the colours of the plastic pieces in Buckaroo are too vivid ...but that doesn't change the game itself!
 
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uweeickert wrote:
In the very early editions, the front and flank ratings were side by side like the FP. But as the counter design progressed, the stats were too bunched and I just slipped one up. If I had to do it over, I would probably reverse the two. But what can I do now. (NO, I can't just send everyone new counters!)


Maybe something to consider for the 2nd edition printing?
 
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Kevin Reynolds
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Changing the counter layout now will only probably only contribute to additional confusion and headaches for everyone. I think since it has went to press this way, we are kinda stuck with it. It may not be completely intuitive, but I don't think it breaks anything keeping it this way.
 
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Ozvortex wrote:
Maybe something to consider for the 2nd edition printing?

I'd call it a really bad idea to flip the location of values between printings, or even editions. Way too confusing for anyone who started with the original.
 
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Mark Buetow
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Actually, it makes sense to see the front DR as down in the corner. That really makes it come into focus. I played yesterday with that new insight and I wasn't confused at all. cool
 
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S G
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presence wrote:
Changing the counter layout now will only probably only contribute to additional confusion and headaches for everyone. I think since it has went to press this way, we are kinda stuck with it. It may not be completely intuitive, but I don't think it breaks anything keeping it this way.


Agreed -- don't change it. However, there are various visual design techniques that can make it obvious which one is which (subject to the limitations of the printing process). For example, lowering the contrast of one or the other (depending on which one you want to emphasize), and of course the more obvious technique of changing the font size slightly. A good artist should be able to "fix" this without changing the placement of things.
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Will Betts
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I can see why the question is asked but actually 4 key stats, 1 in each corner seems pretty simple and logical.

I did find myself having to check I had the right one a few times and may still get myself confused in future but I suspect thats me not the counters !

Will.
 
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Joe Donnelly
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Much ado about nothing.

The lower number (that is, the one with lower value) is the flank number. It's that easy.

It's possible - though unlikely - that some future unit might have a stronger flank than front rating, but even then the coloured box around the flank DR keeps it pretty clear.
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Hannes Riener
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Malacandra wrote:
Actually, it makes sense to see the front DR as down in the corner. That really makes it come into focus. I played yesterday with that new insight and I wasn't confused at all. cool


Absolutely.

Actually - having the more important numbers somewhere 'misplaced' on the counter... that would be bothering!
 
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Hannes Riener
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As it somehow does fit to this thread - here I go:

No big deal but it takes me a while every now and then to realize that the black number (top left corner) is the AP-cost for firing while the number to the right is the one what shows the AP-cost to move the unit although it is for non-wheeled units in the same color as everything what has to do with fire: i.e. blue or red.

And so it happens that you find me staring at the counter for a second thinking: "ok. Firing anti-personal red FPs now. And the cost for this action is NOT the red AP-cost number but the black one!"
 
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