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Subject: Why Use Cards As Goods? rss

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Jonathan Woodward
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Given that goods are represented by cards from the deck, which you never look at, and eventually discard, is there any particular reason to represent them with cards?

(Apart from A) making the game vaguely more portable, and B) making you cycle through the deck quicker.)

Why not represent them with colored blocks or similar?

-JW
 
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Asa Swain
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I think you picked the most obvious two reasons.

Some would say the multiple uses for card makes the game more "elegant", whatever that means. :-)
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Jason Cheng
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Sort of related. When a consume power gives you a card, why not just draw the good into your hand instead of from the deck?
 
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Matthew M
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Zalasta wrote:
Sort of related. When a consume power gives you a card, why not just draw the good into your hand instead of from the deck?


Because it helps cycle through the deck faster as well as ensuring that some cards from the deck won't be seen (at least through the first pass).

-MMM
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woodwardiocom wrote:
...making you cycle through the deck quicker...


This is my guess. Going through the deck so quickly helps mitigate some of the luck-of-the-draw issues.
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Jonathan Woodward
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Zalasta wrote:
Sort of related. When a consume power gives you a card, why not just draw the good into your hand instead of from the deck?


That makes sense. However, since goods often turn into victory points, it would make just as much sense to represent them with victory point chits, n'est-ce pas?
 
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Jonathan Woodward
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Octavian wrote:
Because it helps cycle through the deck faster as well as ensuring that some cards from the deck won't be seen (at least through the first pass).


Assuming that the deck is randomly shuffled, and that you simply shuffle the discards into a new deck when necessary, this doesn't actually accomplish anything. A random card drawn from the top, not looked at, and then eventually randomly shuffled back in is functionally identical to every other unseen card in the deck.

-JW
 
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Jonathan Woodward
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Let me rephrase a bit: If I wanted to use alternate markers for goods, does anyone think it would meaningfully affect the game?

-JW
 
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Brandon Pennington
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I think one reason is that it is done that way in San Jaun and the other is that it makes for a different mix of cards that you might get in each game. If you used every card in the deck, you would always know what cards are in there. This way it keeps you from knowing for certain if a certain card is going to appear or not.

:edit: woops, people responded while I was typing
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Philip Thomas
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woodwardiocom wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Because it helps cycle through the deck faster as well as ensuring that some cards from the deck won't be seen (at least through the first pass).


Assuming that the deck is randomly shuffled, and that you simply shuffle the discards into a new deck when necessary, this doesn't actually accomplish anything. A random card drawn from the top, not looked at, and then eventually randomly shuffled back in is functionally identical to every other unseen card in the deck.

-JW


No, cycling through the deck faster does have a real effect. This is because some of the cards in that discard pile have been seen- they were discarded by players from their hands. Faster cycling means those cards have more chance of getting back into players hands.
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Jonathan Woodward
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Philip Thomas wrote:
This is because some of the cards in that discard pile have been seen- they were discarded by players from their hands. Faster cycling means those cards have more chance of getting back into players hands.


That's a fair point. Thanks!

-JW
 
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Dave Kudzma
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Yep. Just card rotation. I think it also reduces the number of bits the game needs.

I'm also certain that this functionality was inspired by San Juan before the reasoning was totally clear.
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Matthew M
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woodwardiocom wrote:
Octavian wrote:
Because it helps cycle through the deck faster as well as ensuring that some cards from the deck won't be seen (at least through the first pass).


Assuming that the deck is randomly shuffled, and that you simply shuffle the discards into a new deck when necessary, this doesn't actually accomplish anything. A random card drawn from the top, not looked at, and then eventually randomly shuffled back in is functionally identical to every other unseen card in the deck.

-JW


What other unseen cards are there other than goods?

This is very different than me not seeing it personally when another player has because that player can decide whether or not to place that card in the discards to possibly get drawn again.

-MMM
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woodwardiocom wrote:
Zalasta wrote:
Sort of related. When a consume power gives you a card, why not just draw the good into your hand instead of from the deck?


That makes sense. However, since goods often turn into victory points, it would make just as much sense to represent them with victory point chits, n'est-ce pas?
inner quote: Already addressed. The designer meant for players to cycle through cards faster by discarding the card that represents a good and then drawing a fresh card off the top.

OUTER QUOTE: Goods are turned into VP chips and/or cards. If you use chips to represent goods, then you wouldn't know if the game truly ended b/c the common pool of VP chips were really used for points or if they were only being used as goods instead.
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Phillip Aquino
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woodwardiocom wrote:
Let me rephrase a bit: If I wanted to use alternate markers for goods, does anyone think it would meaningfully affect the game?

-JW



Well if you were playing two player, and both players were vying for the military strategy, AND New Galactic Order hadn't been played, AND you didn't have it in your hand, AND the opposing player just drew the last card, then you KNOW that he has to have it...


where if you used cards as goods (and you've been producing, or 'windfalling', goods) then you wouldn't be certain.



It keeps the 'universe' random, or at least more random. If you normally play and deplete the draw deck a few times, then that means that each card has at least had a chance to get into the game. Someone has seen it and decided if it was useful or not. But if goods are represented by cards, then you can play through a game and not have complete certainty that any particular card will show up or had the chance to show up.

You just need to decide if that is important or not to you...

 
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Tim Stellmach
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Why not use cards as goods? What would adding components to the game achieve, when cards work perfectly well?
 
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Lindsay Thomas
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Main reason:

it makes the game less expensive to produce.
 
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lindsayt wrote:
Main reason:

it makes the game less expensive to produce.


...and thus less expensive to buy. But I think the faster cycling is, if not the original intention, at least a moderately beneficial by-product.

That said I find that I rarely (maybe one time in 5) end up shuffling the deck in a 2 player game.
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Greg Jones
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timstellmach wrote:
Why not use cards as goods? What would adding components to the game achieve, when cards work perfectly well?


I haven't been able to come up with a really satisfactory way to place the face-down good card with the world it's on.

Putting it under is physically awkward.

Putting it on top obscures the powers of the card.

Putting it on top but a little to the side means I need wider space for each card, which I usually forget to make in advance and I have to respace my cards when I produce.

Putting it above or below uses up more table space, which might not be available.
 
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morningstar wrote:
timstellmach wrote:
Why not use cards as goods? What would adding components to the game achieve, when cards work perfectly well?


I haven't been able to come up with a really satisfactory way to place the face-down good card with the world it's on.

Putting it under is physically awkward.

Putting it on top obscures the powers of the card.

Putting it on top but a little to the side means I need wider space for each card, which I usually forget to make in advance and I have to respace my cards when I produce.

Putting it above or below uses up more table space, which might not be available.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/339736
Putting it on top seems to be the preferred option here. I prefer putting the good beneath the card so that others may view the card.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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I think it is very important that not all the cards are seen by players as the deck cycles. That is why I designed this rule for the PR card game prototype and why discards are "face down and messy".
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Andrei Filip
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morningstar wrote:


I haven't been able to come up with a really satisfactory way to place the face-down good card with the world it's on.

Putting it under is physically awkward.

Putting it on top obscures the powers of the card.

Putting it on top but a little to the side means I need wider space for each card, which I usually forget to make in advance and I have to respace my cards when I produce.

Putting it above or below uses up more table space, which might not be available.


Those are the same reasons I don't like to use card marking the goods. Instead I use glass beads, which are far more obvious and easy to manipulate. I do discard the cards I was supposed to use instead so the purpose of the rule stays untouched.
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Matthew Hurst
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morningstar wrote:


Putting it on top obscures the powers of the card.



What!!? You haven't memorized the card powers yet?
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Zen Postman wrote:
morningstar wrote:


Putting it on top obscures the powers of the card.



What!!? You haven't memorized the card powers yet?
heh, just wait till the expansion(s) come out
 
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Derek H
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locusshifter wrote:
I'm also certain that this functionality was inspired by San Juan before the reasoning was totally clear.

No, on two points. Firstly, this game was designed before San Juan. Secondly, the designers and playtesters put a lot of thought into the game!
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