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Subject: Running out of cards rss

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Hi!


We played the game several times with 3-4 persons and in almost every game, we completly ran out of cards. Each player had some buildings and 3 players had a chapel with about 10-15cards underneath. What do you do then? Has anybody else had that issue. (Componends are complete, yes we end on 12 buildings )
 
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Caleb
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Do you mean you don't have any cards in a discard stack to re-shuffle? You're supposed to shuffle the discards when the draw pile runs out.
 
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You are shuffling the discards to form a new draw stack when appropriate, right?
 
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Caleb
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You could theoretically run out of cards if, in a 4-player game, each person had a Tower down (so a hand limit of 12 cards), each person had 11 buildings built, and each person had 10 cards under their chapel. I find this scenario highly implausible, though
 
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Greg Jones
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I don't think this situation is covered in the rules. My ruling would be to simply end the game and count points.

The precise timing would be whenever you need to deal out a card but both the draw pile and discards are empty. However if this happens during the Builder phase (a player has the Carpenter or Poor House), everyone should get a chance to build.

Be careful to do everything one step at a time. For example, if there is a total of 8 cards in the draw pile and discards, and someone calls Councillor, that doesn't need to end the game. A total of 11 cards need to be given out, but give the first player five cards, of which they discard four. Give the next player two cards, and they discard one. Give the third player the last card from the draw pile, shuffle the four and one cards discarded by the first and second player, and give one of these to the third player. They discard one. Give two more cards from the just-shuffled cards to the fourth player, and they discard one.
 
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Greg Jones
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cannoneer wrote:
You could theoretically run out of cards if, in a 4-player game, each person had a Tower down (so a hand limit of 12 cards), each person had 11 buildings built, and each person had 10 cards under their chapel. I find this scenario highly implausible, though


Impossible, since there are only three Towers and three Chapels.

The Tower is unnecessary, though, because the hand limit is not enforced immediately. So even without a Tower, someone can have a lot of cards in their hand.

Say everyone starts the round with seven cards. Everyone has two stocked Silver Smelters, and three people have Trading Posts. To take it to the extreme we could strew all three Market Stands and all three Market Halls around the table. The player without the Trading Post calls Trade, so everybody trades 2. Actually, let's give that player a Library and three stocked Silver Smelters. The trade stick shows a value of 3 for Silver. Total cards distributed in the trade: 33.

That brings total cards in hands to 61, plus 11 cards on the table for everybody gets to 105. Actually the Chapels aren't even necessary, because just the second player having a Library and calling Councillor will run out the deck.

Okay, this extreme situation is improbable too, but among new players heavily using production strategies, something close to it might happen. The original poster's group might be both heavily using production strategies and heavily using Chapels.
 
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Greg Jones
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blobboh wrote:
We played the game several times with 3-4 persons and in almost every game, we completly ran out of cards. Each player had some buildings and 3 players had a chapel with about 10-15cards underneath. What do you do then? Has anybody else had that issue. (Componends are complete, yes we end on 12 buildings )


Usually the game will end before someone can get 10-15 cards in their Chapel. If you were building infrequently it might not. However, usually even if you were reluctant to build, eventually you have to or lose cards because you're over the hand limit. I wonder if you are remembering the hand limit.

Also, make sure you are only putting at most one card under the Chapel per round.
 
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In most cases, placing that many cards under a chapel would be a losing strategy - other people will be building fast enough to end the game with more points than you have.

It sounds like your group has settled into a less-than-perfect strategy*, and instead of having one (or more) players change their behavior to challenge that strategy, everyone is just trying to be more efficient doing the same thing.

My first suggestion is to try doing something different in your next game.

My second suggestion is to use Greg's ruling:
Quote:
My ruling would be to simply end the game and count points.

The precise timing would be whenever you need to deal out a card but both the draw pile and discards are empty. However if this happens during the Builder phase (a player has the Carpenter or Poor House), everyone should get a chance to build.




*Then again, maybe this is the best strategy and I haven't "done it right". That really is a possibility.
 
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Since that seems to be our problem only => some more input:
We build a building almost every turn (about 1-2times in the game a player has not enough cards to build something, but thats a rare case). The first winner has about 55-75 points at the end of the game (altime highscore was 86 if I remember correctly). Our games take about 15-16 turns. Of course we reshuffle the discard pile.

Heavy resourcing may be true, though. Depending on the strategy of a players, he would have up to 5 non-purples at end of the game.

 
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Carl Bussema
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55-75! That's just crazy. You can't possibly regularly get 55-75 points in San Juan if you're ending the game in 15-16 turns, unless you get miraculous draws.
 
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Steve Duff
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You're ending on 12 total cards, not 12 purples, right?
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Caleb
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Yeah, something's definitely wrong here. I think I MAY have seen ONE score in the 50's after about 75 games...I recommend playing a few games on BrettSpielWelt to see how it's implemented and make sure you're not doing something wrong.

You aren't drawing cards for free each turn or anything, are you?
 
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Yeah, I'm of the "Something Ain't Right" camp on this one. You have to be playing incorrectly to be running out of cards AND getting scores that high. It's just a matter of figuring out what it is.

Hey, this is like a game of Zendo!
 
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Ok-there's the fault, we played until 12 purples. shake

(But its a nice variant for 2 players though )
 
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Steve Duff
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Woohoo, I got one right for once! cool
 
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Marcelo Paschoalin
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blobboh wrote:
Ok-there's the fault, we played until 12 purples. shake

(But its a nice variant for 2 players though )

Let's consider your mistake as a variant for a moment... How is the game for 2 players until one gets 12 purples? How much time does it take to finish a game? What differences in game strategy do you notice?

I'm interested in hearing some feedback about your mistake...
 
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