Recommend
142 
 Thumb up
 Hide
137 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Me And Wife Reprimanded For Playing Games: Incredibly Stupid North Carolina Statute rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Udu Wudu
badge
Udu Wudu
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I usually don't rant here....But: I have to rant here. Not only does this this really piss me off, but also amazes me beyond belief how stupid people and the law can be.

Me and my wife, both avid gamers went on a trip to Asheville, NC. We stayed at the finest (and most expensive) resort to say the least. Naturally, as part of our trip, we brought a handful of games: Agricola, Cold War: CIA vs KGB, Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42, Race for the Galaxy and 1960: The Making of the President.

One afternoon while sitting in a bar area while playing Conflict of Heroes, the bartender came up to us and told us we could not play that in an area where alcohol was served and would have to either cease playing or leave. Chagrined, I stated that not only were we not consuming alcohol, we were not gambling. She said, none of that matters. The law states no dice or card games are allowed in a public area where alcohol is served; whether you are gambling or not is irrelevant. I promptly explained that this game is certainly not a "dice game," but she replied it doesn't matter, since dice are used. Aggrevated beyond belief (I was winning too), we sought the hotel manager, who did apologize and said that our game, after my description, was a board game, not a dice game thus "legal"....hurray. That night, we were playing Cold War: KGB vs CIA in the huge cavernous hotel lobby, which unfourtunately for us, has a bar way on the other side. Alas, the same thing happened. I promptly explained, that despite the fact this is a card game, it is totally unlike any card game; it does not use a standard 52 card deck. Again we were asked to pack it in.


So I am amazed that in a state where Bingo and the Lottery are both legal, you cannot play any dice games or card games in a public area where alcohol is served, even if you are not gambling. I even looked this up under the NC statutes and couldn't find it. The closest I could find was a case deeming Poker is all about luck and no skill, since the cards are played face-down.

Needless to say whether this statute exists or not, it is an incredibly sad affair where a couple cannot sit down in a bar and play a game with dice or cards.

97 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
SH W
Singapore
Singapore
Singapore
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is why you should have brought Monopoly. No explanation needed.
20 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
A L D A R O N
badge
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
Avatar
mb
This should be in General Gaming.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
'Bernard Wingrave'
United States
Wyoming
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you and your wife.

I tried to find the law using the state's search page, and I came up with the following:
http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/byarti...

The legalese doesn't appear to address the games you were playing, but it's probably as close as the law comes. My guess is that someone in management at the resort decided (and pounded it into everyone's heads) that it would be easier to tell people not to play cards or dice near alcohol than to figure out if cards or dice were being used to gamble -- kind of like the security personnel at airports being told that no liquids were allowed on planes, which was easier than having them try to figure out which liquids were OK and which were dangerous.

Edit: Here's the search page:
http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/Statutes/StatutesTOC.pl
and I just noticed that it only allows searches through 2006 legislation, so it's possible that something was added or changed since then.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, regulations are often implemented in a much more stringent way than was intended when they were written. Its partly a cultural thing. One of the reasons for the strength of British eurosceptiscm is that British officials have an ingrained culture of over-implementation of regulations (including EU ones), while, say, Italian officials have an ingrained culture of under-implementation of regulations. So the same Eu regulations seem a lot harsher in Britain than they do in Italy.

Which is by way of a digression from the point at issue here, except to say that maybe the incredible stupidity isn't in the statute but in those who have taken it on themselves to implement it.
34 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Matchen
United States
Baltimore
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Before I start, I'll make the usual disclaimer about this not being legal advice, and that you shouldn't rely on it as such. I don't practice any more, and I don't hold myself out as an attorney.

Bernard's got the right chapter, but I'll direct you to the particular section they were probably concerned with. It's G.S. § 14-293: "Allowing gambling in houses of public entertainment; penalty." Basically, it prohibits any business where alcoholic beverages are served from allowing the play of "any game, at which money, or property, or anything of value, is bet, whether the same be at stake or not" on the premises. There is no specific mention of dice, but that's probably what the workers have been told to look for. The penalty is permanent loss of the establishment's liquor license, which is a death sentence to a bar and most restaurants as well.

Now, in my lay opinion, which the manager apparently shared, you weren't in violation of the law, but the stakes are still too high for the wait and bar staff. The manager may have had the authority to say that you were within the law, but, given the extraordinarily low job security at most food service businesses, I'd be shocked if there's a single bartender or waitperson in North Carolina who'd have risked their jobs by making that judgment call. If they were wrong, they'd have been terminated on the spot, period. Instead, they'll do exactly what these people did and ask you to stop--or simply eject you--particularly if there was no manager on duty.

Even backgammon players run afoul of this routinely, which is why they repair to coffee houses. It's a bit more clearcut in the case of backgammon, which has been known to involve gambling (that's what the doubling cube's for). But it isn't a chance most bars are willing to take; liquor licenses are notoriously hard to acquire, and, once you lose one, you're never getting another.

In any case, I'm not saying you were wrong, but I am not at all surprised by what happened. And all it takes is one bad call by a cop or licensing inspector to cripple the business--most places won't have the resources to mount a lengthy appeal process; they're hemorrhaging money daily while the liquor license stays suspended. If you balance upsetting a patron versus risking failure of the business, it's going to come down against the customer virtually every time.
  • [+] Dice rolls
♪ Isaäc Bickërstaff ♫
United States
Greer
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
Entropy Seminar:
badge
The results of a five yeer studee ntu the sekund lw uf thurmodynamiks aand itz inevibl fxt hon shewb rt nslpn raq liot.
Avatar
mb
Was this the Biltmore or Grove Park resort?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lady Masha
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmb
You know what's awful? This happens way more than I ever thought it would. My favorite time, though, was when a waitress was so confused by our game that she asked if it was Monopoly. We were so shocked. Not only did we not have little tin cars and thimbles, we did not have a Monopoly board, OR cards OR property, or anything that remotely resembled any of that. We were baffled that she didn't know what Monopoly looked like, first of all.

We stared at her until she told us to leave.

It is totally dumb that in places where you can play Keno, one of the most vacant games ever, you can't pull out 1960.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Kloth
United States
Wausau
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Damn Nanny-State.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Cates
United States
Visalia
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
At KublaCon they made us pack up Risk Express in the Bar citing the same kind of thing. Funny because I've seen a lot of dice being played in bars in CA along with Pool, Darts, and Caroom. My guess is given the game convention going on they wanted the bar to be sort of a haven away from the games.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Bourgeois
Canada
Victoria
British Columbia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Philip Thomas wrote:


Which is by way of a digression from the point at issue here, except to say that maybe the incredible stupidity isn't in the statute but in those who have taken it on themselves to implement it.


I agree that it's a silly law to keep up but don't chastise the people for doing their jobs. If they've been told they 'must' uphold it then be polite and ask for assistance up the chain of command but don't be an ass over it. Everyone has rules they have to follow whether they agree with it or not.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim O'Neill (Established 1949)
Scotland
Motherwell
Graduate of Barlinnie
flag msg tools
VENI, VIDI, VISA - my reaction on entering my FLGS.
badge
Like a good red wine, I improve with age... and being laid.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marlowe_PI wrote:
waitperson.


Now I've heard it all.
65 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Smallwood
United States
Santa Ana
California
flag msg tools
badge
TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a very good cautionary tale. Since I am contentious, if I travel I will have a copy of the law on me to refute their objection, and when they kick me out anyway with the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anybody" line I'll demand my money back for being ejected. Bring it, mater-dee!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
bestia immonda
Italy
Bologna
Bologna
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Philip Thomas wrote:
Yes, regulations are often implemented in a much more stringent way than was intended when they were written. Its partly a cultural thing. One of the reasons for the strength of British eurosceptiscm is that British officials have an ingrained culture of over-implementation of regulations (including EU ones), while, say, Italian officials have an ingrained culture of under-implementation of regulations. So the same Eu regulations seem a lot harsher in Britain than they do in Italy.

Which is by way of a digression from the point at issue here, except to say that maybe the incredible stupidity isn't in the statute but in those who have taken it on themselves to implement it.


We're not talking about banks and controlling their balances, aren't we?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kristian Madsen
Sweden
Bandhagen
n/a
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Aldaron wrote:
This should be in General Gaming.


In North Carolina, file under "General Gambling".

/kgm
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's incredibly stupid. The magazine Reason has a great section in every issue for incredibly stupid laws.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heckle Jekyll
United States
Knox
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I doubt it is the law that is stupid. More likely the ones interpreting it.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Lyons Beck
United States
Olympia
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Hey man-- smell my finger!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd like to further David's comment, and repeat that the real person you should be talking to is the manager. For anyone who experiences this, simply thank the waitperson, don't leave, and ask to speak to the bar manager, who is the person who can make the call.

And in that conversation, politely point out that there is no gambling involved, and also that being kicked out of a bar for playing a board game is a _great_ human interest story, and that you'll be sure to contact the local press & tell them your experience. (Side note: a similar thing happened last summer when our Governor, Christine Gregoire was refused service at a bar because she didn't have any ID.) Now, you're not an important political figure, but stories like this are great for the local press, and it would give exposure to 1) the stupidity of the law & 2) cool board games. Of course, the manager might understand the negative publicity, and as you've presented yourselves as polite, responsible people, just allow you to finish your game in peace. Which is what we all want, mais non?
cool
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Dresden
United States
Woodridge
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Marlowe_PI wrote:
Before I start, I'll make the usual disclaimer about this not being legal advice, and that you shouldn't rely on it as such. I don't practice any more, and I don't hold myself out as an attorney.

Bernard's got the right chapter, but I'll direct you to the particular section they were probably concerned with. It's G.S. § 14-293: "Allowing gambling in houses of public entertainment; penalty." Basically, it prohibits any business where alcoholic beverages are served from allowing the play of "any game, at which money, or property, or anything of value, is bet, whether the same be at stake or not" on the premises. There is no specific mention of dice, but that's probably what the workers have been told to look for. The penalty is permanent loss of the establishment's liquor license, which is a death sentence to a bar and most restaurants as well.

Now, in my lay opinion, which the manager apparently shared, you weren't in violation of the law, but the stakes are still too high for the wait and bar staff. The manager may have had the authority to say that you were within the law, but, given the extraordinarily low job security at most food service businesses, I'd be shocked if there's a single bartender or waitperson in North Carolina who'd have risked their jobs by making that judgment call. If they were wrong, they'd have been terminated on the spot, period. Instead, they'll do exactly what these people did and ask you to stop--or simply eject you--particularly if there was no manager on duty.

Even backgammon players run afoul of this routinely, which is why they repair to coffee houses. It's a bit more clearcut in the case of backgammon, which has been known to involve gambling (that's what the doubling cube's for). But it isn't a chance most bars are willing to take; liquor licenses are notoriously hard to acquire, and, once you lose one, you're never getting another.

In any case, I'm not saying you were wrong, but I am not at all surprised by what happened. And all it takes is one bad call by a cop or licensing inspector to cripple the business--most places won't have the resources to mount a lengthy appeal process; they're hemorrhaging money daily while the liquor license stays suspended. If you balance upsetting a patron versus risking failure of the business, it's going to come down against the customer virtually every time.


If they have a pool table/dart board/video game machine anywhere within a mile of the bar on the premises and people are playing or have been playing I'd tell them to get bent. If they refused me at a resort I paid good money for a refund would definitely be in order.

Scott
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Udu Wudu
badge
Udu Wudu
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Was this the Biltmore or Grove Park resort?


Grove Park.

I know they were just doing their jobs, but I don't care what anyone says, it is ridiculous to be forbidden to play harmless games in public places that serve EtOH.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BFL's going down (under)
Australia
ACT
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A ridiculous law, without a doubt, but yet again plenty of geeksnobbery around here.

[hyperbole]'Of course it wasn't gambling, we were playing Agricola, do these people know nothing?[/hyperbole]

You're told that gambling is illegal in the place where you work. The penalties for the rule being broken for the establishment are severe. You know next-to-nothing about games of any sort, let alone which may or may not involve gambling. Wouldn't you be on the safe side and ask people not to play games at all?

29 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
oneilljgf wrote:
Marlowe_PI wrote:
waitperson.


Now I've heard it all.


Ahaha I didn't even notice this at first. Our society is doomed.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joe F.
United States
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Welcome to the "Bible Belt", we have many strange laws in NC. Like you can't purchase alchohol before noon on Sundays(real pain if you are having friends over to watch the 1:00 football game)... You know we were the last state East of the Mississippi to have a lottery? And it has only been in the last 4 or so years that we've had one. I wasn't aware of such laws, but it wouldn't surprise me either.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nordiska wrote:
Welcome to the "Bible Belt", we have many strange laws in NC. Like you can't purchase alchohol before noon on Sundays(real pain if you are having friends over to watch the 1:00 football game)... You know we were the last state East of the Mississippi to have a lottery? And it has only been in the last 4 or so years that we've had one. I wasn't aware of such laws, but it wouldn't surprise me either.


Do you think laws like this are confined to the bible belt? I would bet that most cities in the country have similar ordinances.
13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Society of Watchers
United States
Killbuck
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nordiska wrote:
Welcome to the "Bible Belt", we have many strange laws in NC. Like you can't purchase alchohol before noon on Sundays(real pain if you are having friends over to watch the 1:00 football game)... You know we were the last state East of the Mississippi to have a lottery? And it has only been in the last 4 or so years that we've had one. I wasn't aware of such laws, but it wouldn't surprise me either.




Actually, Ohio also prohibits alcohol sales on Sunday before noon (I think) and then, if I remember correctly, only beer during the rest of the day.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [6] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.