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Subject: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade - Results posted! rss

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Oktoberfest has come and gone, but what comes after Oktoberfest, and just in time for Hallowe'en? Son of Oktoberfest, of course!

This Math Trade will be similar to the recent Spread the Happiness Around event, in that although the trade maximizer will still find the highest number of trades, the first tiebreaker will still be to maximize the number of people involved, simply because I like that idea. Traders from all over the world are allowed to participate.

So, borrowing heavily from the instructions for that event:

Welcome to the Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade

For this math trade want lists will be submitted only by using the online wantlist generator/editor. You may want to make sure you can login to that tool (no password required) if you haven't already.

You must read the Limits & Rules below before joining in on this math trade!

For those of you not familiar with the process, a very useful guide to Math Trades is available here, courtesy of Lindsey Dubb.

We will be Jeff's new version of the TradeMaximizer with duplicate protection. It isn't in Sourceforge yet, but it is publicly available at http://isomerica.net/~jeff/tm.jar

Again, use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for this event (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

The Rules:

1) Gift certificates, Geekgold, DVDs etc are all permitted, up to a maximum of four. The only other restriction is that you must have at least one entry which is a game for each non-game entry that you put up.

2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.

3) Gift certificates must be for a specified location and for a specified amount.

4) Non-game entries must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953) or "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item.

5) You may not post more than ONE copy of any game. This includes sweeteners. However just because someone else has already posted a copy of a game, it doesn't mean that someone else can't post a copy of the same game.

6) You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition, language and edition of your item in the description. This includes sweeteners if they are physical items (i.e. not GG).

For games not brand new (in shrink) you must inventory the game's components and list anything missing. Do not assume it's complete. Also, remember that just because something is "new in shrink" that doesn't mean that you shouldn't disclose any dings. It might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.

If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" make that clear in the description (and I recommend you give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

If you are listing an expansion if you reference the base game in the description be clear one way or the other if you are including the base game or not.

7) Your shipping restrictions must be clearly stated and if you are not covering full shipping, you must state precisely how much of the shipping you will cover. You are not permitted to require a specific amount for shipping from the recipient, only a difference between what you will pay and what the actual shipping cost is. "Mirror shipping" is not allowed. People will offer to pay what they think they can afford - if you don't like someone else's shipping policies, then don't put their items on your list. Any ambiguity will be interpreted as generosity on your part. If you are not covering full shipping, please state clearly where you are shipping from as this will help anyone who is trying to figure out their shipping cost for your item.

8) PLEASE DO NOT DELETE ENTRIES ONCE YOU HAVE ADDED THEM. If you don't want to trade an item you've listed, just submit a blank want list for it.

9) Sweeteners are to be listed using either the GAMEID formatting (prefered, example Hansa) or a link to the game's page (this will look like http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/8989). If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

As moderator, I reserve the right to remove games from the list for whatever reason (I have never had to exercise that authority in prior events and very much doubt that I'll have to here). If you are on the bad traders list, your games will be removed.

Other useful information

Request List: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/35821
Trade List: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/35681

OLWLG Guides: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/30011
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/32005 (Duplicate protection)
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/159648


Software Used: TradeMaximizer with duplicate protection and linear prioritization. SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=100, METRIC=USERS-TRADING

List Cap: None

Maximum Submissions Per User: Unlimited


Geekgold restrictions:

Users may not post more geekgold than they currently have.


Key dates (all times EDT)

Open for posting games: Now to Friday, October 24th (10am ET)

Want list submission period: Now to Sunday, October 26th (10pm ET) - no extensions (I've been too generous in the past with that - if you miss it, there will likely be another math trade in a couple of weeks).

Results posted: (by) Sunday, October 26th, shortly after 10pm ET.


Want list submission

Submissions will only be accepted through the OLWLG.

Note: only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results.

Note: in the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.

Note: you can start putting together your want list(s) immediately, even before you enter your own items into the math trade

Please remember to tip JeffyJeff if you are able to. He's not only responsible for the OLWLG, but also for this new version of the TradeMaximizer that we'll be using.
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
OK. The list is closed. Submissions are turned on.

Have at it folks.

The submission deadline is 10pm ET on Sunday.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
That's it folks. We missed want lists on 57 items. Sorry to those folks but I think I've been pretty clear on the whole "no extensions" thing.

These were outstanding:

# autumnweave (15)
# CasualSax (4)
# cmessenger (9)
# evilone (7)
# fivecats (6)
# Genre_Fad (3)
# Jorren (6)
# ljkopen (3)
# sirebelle (1)
# tehgh0s7 (1)
# yodennis2000 (2)


 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Want lists can be found here.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Results

And here are the results.


A more human readable version has been made available by Jeff at http://activityclub.org/bgg/35681-results-summary.html



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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Thanks for running this Jack. Your MTs are always good.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
CapAp wrote:
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
It means you can't trade a $30 gift certificate for a $50 gift certificate or 100 GG for 150 GG.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
cagriggs wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
It means you can't trade a $30 gift certificate for a $50 gift certificate or 100 GG for 150 GG.
Yes, that's right. If you offer Geekgold, you can't put other people's GG on your want list for the GG you're offering (you're free to put it on the want lists for other items you offer) and the same is true for gift certificates.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
cagriggs wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
It means you can't trade a $30 gift certificate for a $50 gift certificate or 100 GG for 150 GG.
I've been thinking a little about how to allow gift certs to be traded for gift certs without it being arbitrage... how about...

.... you can trade a gift cert for another gift cert that is of equal of less value than the one you are offering? So for example, one could trade a $30 Red Lobster gift cert for a $25 ThoughtHammer?
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
JeffyJeff wrote:
cagriggs wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
It means you can't trade a $30 gift certificate for a $50 gift certificate or 100 GG for 150 GG.
I've been thinking a little about how to allow gift certs to be traded for gift certs without it being arbitrage... how about...

.... you can trade a gift cert for another gift cert that is of equal of less value than the one you are offering? So for example, one could trade a $30 Red Lobster gift cert for a $25 ThoughtHammer?
But can your OLWLG tell the difference and stop this from happening, or will the moderator have to check it all out by hand?
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Howitzer_120mm wrote:
But can your OLWLG tell the difference and stop this from happening, or will the moderator have to check it all out by hand?
Basically the same enforecement as before... checking the results. Would need more meta data to be supplied to auto detect.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
JeffyJeff wrote:
cagriggs wrote:
CapAp wrote:
Quote:
2) Geekgold and gift certificate arbitrage is NOT allowed.
What does this mean exactly?
It means you can't trade a $30 gift certificate for a $50 gift certificate or 100 GG for 150 GG.
I've been thinking a little about how to allow gift certs to be traded for gift certs without it being arbitrage... how about...

.... you can trade a gift cert for another gift cert that is of equal of less value than the one you are offering? So for example, one could trade a $30 Red Lobster gift cert for a $25 ThoughtHammer?
I still don't understand why you want to micromanage this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to trade up. You do it every single trade when you try to unload R&B for Antiquity. Should we outlaw that too?

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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
jdludlow wrote:
I still don't understand why you want to micromanage this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to trade up. You do it every single trade when you try to unload R&B for Antiquity. Should we outlaw that too?
There's a difference between "trading up" and running a "lottery". Why should someone be able to put in 100 geek gold and for doing nothing be able to walk away with 150 geek gold?

Sure, it artificially inflates the number of trades, but it's the number of real games that trade that's important... this is BGG after all, not craigslist or ebay.

And please explain how not allowing trading GG for GG or Gift certs for Gifts is micromanaging? Because you don't like the rule doesn't make it micromanaging than any other math trade rule. Should be just get rid of all the rules? Folks don't have to list which edition, condition, etc, just let it be "buyers beware"?

ps: I'm not trying to "unload" R&B and I find it funny you would charactize a game rated so highly as if it were some crap game. I also don't consider R&B for Antiquity to be a "trade up".... Antiquity may be harder to find right now but when I started putting my extra copy of R&B into math trades they were both selling for about the same price.
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
I still don't understand why you want to micromanage this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to trade up. You do it every single trade when you try to unload R&B for Antiquity. Should we outlaw that too?
There's a difference between "trading up" and running a "lottery". Why should someone be able to put in 100 geek gold and for doing nothing be able to walk away with 150 geek gold?

Sure, it artificially inflates the number of trades, but it's the number of real games that trade that's important... this is BGG after all, not craigslist or ebay.

And please explain how not allowing trading GG for GG or Gift certs for Gifts is micromanaging? Because you don't like the rule doesn't make it micromanaging than any other math trade rule. Should be just get rid of all the rules? Folks don't have to list which edition, condition, etc, just let it be "buyers beware"?

ps: I'm not trying to "unload" R&B and I find it funny you would charactize a game rated so highly as if it were some crap game. I also don't consider R&B for Antiquity to be a "trade up".... Antiquity may be harder to find right now but when I started putting my extra copy of R&B into math trades they were both selling for about the same price.
Does this also mean GAME arbitrage is not allowed? I'm not talking about trading Game_A for Game_B such that Value(Game_A) < Value(Game_B). I'm talking about things like trading Game_A for Game_A + Game_B (ex. I saw a local trade where Rat Hot was traded for Rat Hot + Fist of the Dragonstones.). This is clearly arbitrage by the same definitions as trading X_GG for Y_GG such that Y_GG = X_GG + Z_GG.

I understand the arguments against GG and GC arbitrage, and while I disagree with them (I personally think they create more real game trades by creating more viable chains), they're clearly stated in the rules, so they are a reasonable limitation.
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
I still don't understand why you want to micromanage this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to trade up. You do it every single trade when you try to unload R&B for Antiquity. Should we outlaw that too?
There's a difference between "trading up" and running a "lottery". Why should someone be able to put in 100 geek gold and for doing nothing be able to walk away with 150 geek gold?
Why should you be allowed to put in a $90 game (R&B) and for doing nothing be able to walk away with a $115 game (Antiquity)? The answer is, of course you should be able to do this. There is nothing wrong with either scenario.


Quote:
And please explain how not allowing trading GG for GG or Gift certs for Gifts is micromanaging? Because you don't like the rule doesn't make it micromanaging than any other math trade rule. Should be just get rid of all the rules? Folks don't have to list which edition, condition, etc, just let it be "buyers beware"?
There's a difference between requiring accurate descriptions and playing nanny with peoples' wish lists.

For the record, I never have traded GG or certs and have little interest in either. I also think that R&B is an awesome game, worth every penny of its cost.
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
rgatti wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
I still don't understand why you want to micromanage this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to trade up. You do it every single trade when you try to unload R&B for Antiquity. Should we outlaw that too?
There's a difference between "trading up" and running a "lottery". Why should someone be able to put in 100 geek gold and for doing nothing be able to walk away with 150 geek gold?

Sure, it artificially inflates the number of trades, but it's the number of real games that trade that's important... this is BGG after all, not craigslist or ebay.

And please explain how not allowing trading GG for GG or Gift certs for Gifts is micromanaging? Because you don't like the rule doesn't make it micromanaging than any other math trade rule. Should be just get rid of all the rules? Folks don't have to list which edition, condition, etc, just let it be "buyers beware"?

ps: I'm not trying to "unload" R&B and I find it funny you would charactize a game rated so highly as if it were some crap game. I also don't consider R&B for Antiquity to be a "trade up".... Antiquity may be harder to find right now but when I started putting my extra copy of R&B into math trades they were both selling for about the same price.
Does this also mean GAME arbitrage is not allowed? I'm not talking about trading Game_A for Game_B such that Value(Game_A) < Value(Game_B). I'm talking about things like trading Game_A for Game_A + Game_B (ex. I saw a local trade where Rat Hot was traded for Rat Hot + Fist of the Dragonstones.). This is clearly arbitrage by the same definitions as trading X_GG for Y_GG such that Y_GG = X_GG + Z_GG.

I understand the arguments against GG and GC arbitrage, and while I disagree with them (I personally think they create more real game trades by creating more viable chains), they're clearly stated in the rules, so they are a reasonable limitation.
That's a fair question. The answer is that "Game Arbitrage" is allowed. While the GG and GC rules might seem like micromanagement, I'm trying to keep the amount of micromanagement (and effort on my part) down, so that's where it ends.
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
OK - have at it folks.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Thanks for doing this.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
I'm seeing a whole pile of really good stuff in this one. I'm a little upset that my Trade List has dwindled to nothing. cry I guess it's time to start playing some of these games that I got from previous trades, so I know whether I like them or not. shake
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
You know, I understand the specified vendor requirement for gift certificates, but I must admit to being a bit disappointed - my interest in the certificates depends to a large extent upon the vendor chosen, and very few have offered certificates for the vendor I'd prefer...
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
Just out of curiosity Joe, what vendor are you hoping for? There's a long time to go, so if you let it be known what your preference is, perhaps someone will oblige.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
GameSurplus - since (1) I order from them anyway, so the additional shipping cost is much lower, and (2) I've collected a bunch of gift certificates from there already.

Nothing against other online vendors, many (most?) of whom I've ordered from before - and likely will again; there's just not much tempting me at present, so having a lot of certificates to a single store is most convenient.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
huber wrote:
GameSurplus - since (1) I order from them anyway, so the additional shipping cost is much lower, and (2) I've collected a bunch of gift certificates from there already.
(3) they (in PA) are the closest online retailer to New England... so once orders are shipped they are delivered relatively quickly. Boulder Games (in GA) is the 2nd cloest I think.
 
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Re: The Son of Oktoberfest Math Trade (OLWLG use required)
I can't promise that I'll find much that I'll trade it for, but I've listed a GC from GameSurplus for you...
 
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