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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42» Forums » Rules

Subject: More LOS rss

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Henric Blyvall
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So maybe I´m confused by the fact that I have played so many other games with different or almost identical rules for LOS but here it goes:

Rule 6.0: "If LOS passes exactly along the edge of two hexes, it is always affected by the hex with the lesser obstacle".

No problem with that. But if LOS also passes along another hex edge further away with obstacle terrain on the other side of the LOS line, is LOS blocked? I think it is in some other game (TOI? CC? M44?). Example: russian MMG is in stone house 2-j10. Can he shoot at hex 2-j04?

How do you play?
 
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Harald Torvatn
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KamratMolotov wrote:
So maybe I´m confused by the fact that I have played so many other games with different or almost identical rules for LOS but here it goes:

Rule 6.0: "If LOS passes exactly along the edge of two hexes, it is always affected by the hex with the lesser obstacle".

No problem with that. But if LOS also passes along another hex edge further away with obstacle terrain on the other side of the LOS line, is LOS blocked? I think it is in some other game (TOI? CC? M44?). Example: russian MMG is in stone house 2-j10. Can he shoot at hex 2-j04?

How do you play?


I would read the rules litteraly. Each time LOS passes between two hexes, treat it as clear los if one of those can be seen trough. The rules says nothing about the los having to choose between right or left hex, and then stick with that.

So yes, 2-J10 can see 2-j4.
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Henric Blyvall
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Hmm, FOUR minutes for the first answer. Come on you can do better guys!

Yup, I´m leaning towards playing it literally. The germans in 2-j04 are already gone.
 
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James Palmer
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I agree, the LOS passes through. I'm sure that's the same way M'44 works. At least that's the same way Battlelore works, so I think it would be same for all C&C games.
 
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Andy Watkins
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I saw the same rule somewhere, if it wasn't M44 it must have been TOI.

When I read it I immediately thought that CoH was "different" because it takes each piece of terrain individually.

Doubt if it would happen very often in reality....
 
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James Palmer
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It happened to me in Firefight #8. There's a good LOS for your MMG on the right side of the board as Soviets that goes right up into the village, but it skims along woods both on the right side and left side.
 
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Harald Torvatn
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If you wiew it as the wood not completely filling the hex out to the hexside where the wood ends, it actually makes sense.
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James Palmer
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Harald wrote:
If you wiew it as the wood not completely filling the hex out to the hexside where the wood ends, it actually makes sense.


Yup, that's how I look at it. Even if we're not sure if a shot is being blocked or not because it looks like it might be -just- clipping the corner of the hex, then we usually let the shot go through. Rather than debate it, we just take that point of view and agree that it has LOS.
 
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Jan van der Laan
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Felkor wrote:
I agree, the LOS passes through. I'm sure that's the same way M'44 works. At least that's the same way Battlelore works, so I think it would be same for all C&C games.


In the M'44 rulebook (page 9) an example makes clear that in this particular case (both sides of LOS is blocking terrain) there is no LOS. The same goes for Tide of Iron (see page 24).
 
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James Palmer
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Interesting!

This is not the way it works in Battlelore, and can find nothing to say it's the way it works in Conflict of Heroes. But, perhaps Uwe or Nick will rule otherwise.
 
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uwe eickert
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"There's a good LOS for your MMG on the right side of the board as Soviets that goes right up into the village, but it skims along woods both on the right side and left side."

Yes, you can still see the target. Mainly because we count then entire hex as the terrain type under the center dot. This does not mean that trees for example grow right to the hex edge and then stop. So hopefully the rules are thus easier to memorize and add a little less complexity. Again, as long as both players realize this, it should not affect the overall outcome of the game.

Uwe
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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I think it is a very good idea to restrict CoH questions to the CoH rules. There are thousands of other games out there, and asking whether a rule from some other game should apply to this one could go on forever.


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James Palmer
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Sphere wrote:
I think it is a very good idea to restrict CoH questions to the CoH rules. There are thousands of other games out there, and asking whether a rule from some other game should apply to this one could go on forever.




I agree. Probably the biggest reason why I tend to not get confused by the Conflict of Heroes rules is simply that I haven't played any other WWII tactical wargames. Everything works just as it should as far as I'm concerned, simply because I haven't seen it done any other way.
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Jan van der Laan
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Felkor wrote:
I agree. Probably the biggest reason why I tend to not get confused by the Conflict of Heroes rules is simply that I haven't played any other WWII tactical wargames. Everything works just as it should as far as I'm concerned, simply because I haven't seen it done any other way.


Count yourself to the lucky ones (says someone who has played Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes, Tide of Iron, Combat Commander: Europe, loves 'em all but mixes up the rules regularly)
 
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Henric Blyvall
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Thanks for all the answers. Wish I could just unlearn the other games (back to Panzer Leader...) so they don´t mess up my mind!
 
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Christopher Hill
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Quote:
No problem with that. But if LOS also passes along another hex edge further away with obstacle terrain on the other side of the LOS line, is LOS blocked? I think it is in some other game (TOI? CC? M44?). Example: russian MMG is in stone house 2-j10. Can he shoot at hex 2-j04?


One game that used this rule was Battle Cry. Obstacles on both sides of a hex spine would block line of sight whether the hexes were adjacent or separate. Personally, the way the rules are written for CoH I assumed it was the same as Battle Cry. In CoH for example, woods and buildings block line of site despite where the physical attribute is within the hex, so I just took it to mean if the LOS follows a hex spine and it passes through hexes that block LOS on each side of the spine, then your LOS is blocked. Obviously, I was wrong in my assessment.
 
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A L D A R O N
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KamratMolotov wrote:
So maybe I´m confused...

I also have the problem of having played too many games, some with pretty messed up LOS rules, but I think (think) the LOS rules for CoH are easily summarized
 
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Filip Van Boxelaer
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uweeickert wrote:
"There's a good LOS for your MMG on the right side of the board as Soviets that goes right up into the village, but it skims along woods both on the right side and left side."

Yes, you can still see the target. Mainly because we count then entire hex as the terrain type under the center dot. This does not mean that trees for example grow right to the hex edge and then stop. So hopefully the rules are thus easier to memorize and add a little less complexity. Again, as long as both players realize this, it should not affect the overall outcome of the game.

Uwe


Without being offensive, but this seems totally absurd and a-logical to me. If you have to think that trees are not growing up to the hex edge, then LOS would not be blocked when two woods hexes are opposite of each other along the line too. I never aplied this way of thinking before. For ease of play, I consider a LOS-blocking hex as 100 % blocking.

I asked the same question on the panzer grenadier Forum at consimworld. Some other guy described it as follows:

Quote:
To rephrase - you're sighting down 2 or more hex spines. At the first spine the RIGHT hex has a LOS obstruction so you use the LEFT hex. On the second spine the LEFT hex has a LOS obstruction so you use the RIGHT hex.

This is therefore a zigzag, and I've yet to meet a man who can see in such a creative fashion.

I interpret the rule to give the player the choice of sighting down the RIGHT row or down the LEFT row, not the ability to alternate magically.


I think this makes perfectly sense.
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Christopher Hill
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I agree with your assessment Filip and this is how I have taught LOS when I play the game. I am a stickler for following rules as intended by the designer, but in this case I was applying LOS sight rules from another game that just seemed intuitive to me without even thinking about Uwe's intent.
 
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A L D A R O N
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Filbox wrote:
Without being offensive, but this seems totally absurd and a-logical to me. If you have to think that trees are not growing up to the hex edge, then LOS would not be blocked when two woods hexes are opposite of each other along the line too.

You're overthinking (or underthinking) it. Features come just short of boundaries of the group of hexes they occupy. Woods, for example, don't come in hex-sized chunks, each with its own non-obstructing boundary; the entire multi-hex woods blocks, while its boundaries (not the boundaries of the constituent hexes) don't. The same is obviously true for slopes.

I think your logic makes good sense though when applied to the boundary between very different features (a woods and a building, for example), but implementing it would add a lot of complexity for very little effect (e.g. woods and light woods should probably be treated as continuous with each other, but what about wooden and stone buildings, or a woods and a slope?).

Overall the rules as written strike what seems to me to be the right balance.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Must every designer of every game use exactly the same rules as in previous games because we are too dim and inflexible to remember which game we're playing, and which interpretation is in effect?

I've played a huge number of tactical wargames since PanzerBlitz was first introduced, and I don't feel the need to 'unlearn' anything. The LOS rule in CoH is clean and simple. The game is clean and simple. This is a good thing.

Arguing on about it after the designer has confirmed that the rules mean what they say is pointless.
 
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Henric Blyvall
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I stopped discussing long ago (this post doesn´t count, hehe). How can you consciously unlearn things anyway?

Game on!
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Filip Van Boxelaer
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Aldaron wrote:
Filbox wrote:
Without being offensive, but this seems totally absurd and a-logical to me. If you have to think that trees are not growing up to the hex edge, then LOS would not be blocked when two woods hexes are opposite of each other along the line too.

You're overthinking (or underthinking) it. Features come just short of boundaries of the group of hexes they occupy. Woods, for example, don't come in hex-sized chunks, each with its own non-obstructing boundary; the entire multi-hex woods blocks, while its boundaries (not the boundaries of the constituent hexes) don't. The same is obviously true for slopes.

I think your logic makes good sense though when applied to the boundary between very different features (a woods and a building, for example), but implementing it would add a lot of complexity for very little effect (e.g. woods and light woods should probably be treated as continuous with each other, but what about wooden and stone buildings, or a woods and a slope?).

Overall the rules as written strike what seems to me to be the right balance.


Aldaron, your explanation convinced me. As you described it, I can see the intent of Uwe. Thanks ;-)
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