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Subject: bali terroists. rss

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andrew
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so the bali bombers are going to be killed. i have 2 questions.

why do we reward these blokes for what they have done? they are clearly happy to die for what they believe is a just cause.

how many australians will die as a result of our govt not posting a strong objection to the killings. we are meant to be and advanced culture here in australia. but now we seem to be sending a message that we too think killing is ok if you feel you have a reason (just like these fuckers).

i want to see them punished, not rewarded. certainly not made martyrs of!!
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Isaac Citrom
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You're missing the point. The faster they run out of virgins, the sooner bombings such as this will be a thing of the past.
.
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andrew
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isaacc wrote:

You're missing the point. The faster they run out of virgins, the sooner bombings such as this will be a thing of the past.
.


oh.. i thought these blokes were islamic?? it's the christians that have the thing about virgins. or do you meen we need to get everyone having sex as soon as possible. some sort of "de-virgification drive"??
 
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nothing but static
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antiussentiment wrote:
isaacc wrote:

You're missing the point. The faster they run out of virgins, the sooner bombings such as this will be a thing of the past.
.


oh.. i thought these blokes were islamic?? it's the christians that have the thing about virgins. or do you meen we need to get everyone having sex as soon as possible. some sort of "de-virgification drive"??


I think he is referring to the alleged 72 virgins islamic martys
are supposed to get.
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lotus dweller
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For death:
example to others
make sure that these specific killers don't do it again
long term imprisonment is torture - death is more humane
death is cheaper than imprisonment - why spend money on them?
eye for an eye - avenge the deaths they caused
remove any possibility for their release if Indonesian government should become fundamentalist

For alternatives:
death is too good for them - punish them for as long as possible
killing them will make them martyrs
killing them will create more killers - dont inflame terrorists
nonessential premeditated killing is wrong
rehabilitating them would help combat violent fundamentalism
they want to be martyrs - don't give them what they want
long term imprisonment would be a better deterent to others


Other reasons?


 
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andrew
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Pinook wrote:
For death:
example to others
make sure that these specific killers don't do it again
long term imprisonment is torture - death is more humane
death is cheaper than imprisonment - why spend money on them?
eye for an eye - avenge the deaths they caused
remove any possibility for their release if Indonesian government should become fundamentalist



i think the example it shows, is that killing for your belifes is ok. we end up looking no better than them.

the eye for an eye thing is just too primitive for australia post 1900.

killing them is actualy more expensive than a prisson term (as the USA has proved). also this tends to boild down to killing for money, that don't make me feel to comfy either.

while lnog term imprisonment my not be nice, bugger them.. they can sit and rot.

i have some sympathy for the last pint thought i'm not sure the ind govt is not already a bit that way inclined.

another issue is whether these are the right dudes and not some blokes who are claiming responsability to be martyrs. i'm not sure i trust the indos to have actualy caught the right blokes. and i know the australian govt over the last 10 years has been happy to spin any story if it will be popular to it's people. esspecialy when it comes to border security...
 
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lotus dweller
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My current thinking is more like "long term imprisonment is torture and long term torture is even worse that premeditated nonessential killing" - which leaves execution as the best alternative I can think of.

Overall I think this situation is one of choosing the "least worst option".

Still either the Australian government approves of the death penalty or it doesnt. And if "we" don't then "we" should be letting the Indonesians know that.


Having read some of VS Naipal's "Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples (1998)" (the follow up to Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey (1981)), it looks to me that the Indonesian elite got suckered into promoting Islam as a way of securing the natinal identity. And somehow Wahabism (or something similar) became the flavour of Islam that was promoted. Given the Saudi governments funding of Wahabism to deflect political unrest at home I wonder if the Wahabists had the spread into Indonesia as a deliberate strategy or if it was a co-incidence. So now the Indonesian government is reaping its crop.
 
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andrew
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Pinook wrote:

Having read some of VS Naipal's "Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions among the Converted Peoples (1998)" (the follow up to Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey (1981)), it looks to me that the Indonesian elite got suckered into promoting Islam as a way of securing the natinal identity. And somehow Wahabism (or something similar) became the flavour of Islam that was promoted. Given the Saudi governments funding of Wahabism to deflect political unrest at home I wonder if the Wahabists had the spread into Indonesia as a deliberate strategy or if it was a co-incidence. So now the Indonesian government is reaping its crop.


hey thanks for that. an informative view and yes the flow of soudi money funding the "branch" is a worry.
 
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lotus dweller
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Thanks - I am interested in hearing more views on what would be a good enough outcome in this situation..

Islamic funding is a fascinating topic - I remember hearing about tithing (sp?) (in Sunday school?) - and then found out that there is a current on-going Islamic equivalent. Which raises ?billions every year. And if you've got money you pretty much have to spend it, which is why so many Islamic charities get linked (by accident I think mainly) to terrorist groups.

I was very surprised to read that Col. Gadafi's government is a major funder of a flavour of Islam considered opposed to Wahhabism. And that this Libyan money was (is?) paying part of the salary of our favourite Islamic cleric in Australia.

I felt like a very small individual in a very small country in a world filled with unimagined power-plays when I read about this.

This also puts new light on the "rehabilitataion" of Libya into the international community. And perhaps also the push to get the convicted Lockerbie bomber re-tried.
 
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lotus dweller
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With their deaths apparently immanent, the best outcome I can think of - them becoming anti-terrorist campaigners and living with a sense of terrible guilt for a long time - appears very unlikely.
 
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Christopher Seguin
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Pinook wrote:
With their deaths apparently immanent, the best outcome I can think of - them becoming anti-terrorist campaigners and living with a sense of terrible guilt for a long time - appears very unlikely.


It would have also appeared very unlikely they would have become anti-terrorist campaigners and living with a sense of guilt had they been allowed to live.

Personally, INHO, let them live in prison for the rest fo their lives. No need to kill them and either incite religious discourse or grant them their desire for martydom. Let them live with their consequences instead.

Anyway, as an American, I know that the death penalty is not a reasonable deterrent to crime. Long-term punishment (i.e life in prision without parole) is.
 
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SH W
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Force them a daily diet of pork and porn. Or is that too inhumane?
 
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lotus dweller
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chrisnd wrote:
Pinook wrote:
With their deaths apparently immanent, the best outcome I can think of - them becoming anti-terrorist campaigners and living with a sense of terrible guilt for a long time - appears very unlikely.


It would have also appeared very unlikely they would have become anti-terrorist campaigners and living with a sense of guilt had they been allowed to live.

Personally, INHO, let them live in prison for the rest fo their lives. No need to kill them and either incite religious discourse or grant them their desire for martydom. Let them live with their consequences instead.

Anyway, as an American, I know that the death penalty is not a reasonable deterrent to crime. Long-term punishment (i.e life in prision without parole) is.

I can understand your thinking about "life in prison", I thought the same way till I heard that Indonesian prisons are very different and one of the bombers was regularly sending audio-cassettes to his home village promoting violent jihad. My understanding is that the Indonesian authorities were aware of this.

In the same program I heard one ex-jihadist talking about trying to reform jihadists and prevent new conversions. I agree its unlikely with these guys - especially now.
 
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