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Subject: Justification for a high price? Yes, box size rss

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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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I am a Wabash Cannonball game owner (the original one from Winsome Games) so after coming back from Essen I was curious to see what was in such a big box. I already saw the demos in the Queen Games stand but I just wanted to check it by myself in a calm situation.

Opening the box and finding what is inside is always part of the excitement... unless it is almost empty. So I made this small comparison to show everyone that the box is just a flimsy excuse to increase the price. After all, you cannot open the game in the store and check its contents, can you?

Box size outer dimension: 21,7cm x 30,7cm x 9,6cm
Total inner volume: 30,2x21,5x9,5 = 6168 cm3

Contents:
Gameboard: 29x20x1,2 = 696 cm3
Charters: 21x14,8x0,8 = 249 cm3
Money: 8x4,6x1,9 = 70 cm3
Shares: 9x6,5x04 = 23 cm3
Rules: 21x29,4x0,2 = 123 cm3
Locomotives and pieces: half liter bag = 500cm3 (including air)

Total volume of contents = 1661 cm3


% of box (volume) used = 27%

That means that almost 3/4 of the box is empty. surprise

Incredible? I would say Shameful.

That's how Queen Games has to justify a higher price. They could made half size box and there would be still lot of free space.

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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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Well, just to mention another one, Cavum is another fine example of super-sized but super-useless box strategy.

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Costas
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OK, so how much does it cost?

 
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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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The official price at Essen 2008 was 30 Euros.

BTW, that reminds me that there is a spelling error in the money notes: it says "Five Dollar" and "Twentyfive dollar" (it should say dollars)
 
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Meh, no big deal to me. I'm still going to pick this up. Many games have a larger box than needed. Is the game worth the price? Depends on the game play. And I think this one will get played quite a bit, so it's worth it to me.
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-=[Ran Over]=-
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The size of the box is the only thing I can think of that might actually have helped reduce the cost of this game. Economies of scale mean standardized box sizes help reduce production costs. Of course, shipping may then become a concern, but I don't know anything about that.

Things other than box size that may have increased the cost of this game:

* It went through Bohrer's hands first.
* Demand.
* Artwork.
* Demand.
* Production quality.
* Demand.
* The fact that it even has a box.
* Demand.
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I don't care how much they want to charge for it, it's going to take up too much room in my closet now. My limited shelf-space means that a game's footprint might be much more costly than it's price tag.

Of course, I could always move it to a smaller box... but we don't have time for rational solutions!
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One might actually argue that the big box size is actually justification for a LOWER price, since it's the same size as many other Queen game boxes.

John Bohrer commented on the quality of components here:

I have been asked if the new Queen version of Wabash Cannonball will be made in China. I can report that it is not and that no parts are from China. While it costs more money to produce the game entirely in Germany, Queen is doing just that. All the elements (box, gameboard, locomotives, etc) are green, non-toxic and recyclable. The Ludofact producers are the best in Germany, so no warped boards or other problems, folks!

meeple

Rio Grande's website is showing the MSRP as $39.95 US, which is LESS than what I paid my Winsome Wabash Cannonball.

So it sounds to me like you've got a top quality game, at a pretty good price.

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Akke Monasso
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A smaller box would mean a smaller board or more folds. I have seen worse offenders.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Akke wrote:
A smaller box would mean a smaller board or more folds. I have seen worse offenders.

Unless the way you made it smaller was actually to reduce the depth of the box (when laid flat), so it fits the board as is without too much blank space. This would be a natural evolution of the odd-sized Queen box into the classic elongated flat game box.

B>
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Anthony Simons
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Box size aside (as others have discussed this) I thought it was a reasonable price.
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Sven
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mcfer wrote:
Box size outer dimension: 21,7cm x 30,7cm x 9,6cm
Total inner volume: 30,2x21,5x9,5 = 6168 cm3

Contents:
Gameboard: 29x20x1,2 = 696 cm3
Charters: 21x14,8x0,8 = 249 cm3
Money: 8x4,6x1,9 = 70 cm3
Shares: 9x6,5x04 = 23 cm3
Rules: 21x29,4x0,2 = 123 cm3
Locomotives and pieces: half liter bag = 500cm3 (including air)

Total volume of contents = 1661 cm3


Feeling bored?
Can we correlate rating to volume?
 
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Yeah it's a large box, but it's pretty nice looking. And it cost me less than the Winsome version. If anyone is really bothered about the size of the box I have a Winsome copy for sale.

But if you're talking about oversize boxes the Dominion one was massive for what is just a card game. It was on my list to check out at Essen, but once I saw the box I crossed it off.
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I would do all the things I have ever dreamed of doing. I would love to become a professional whistler.I'm pretty amazing at it now, but I wanna get, like, even better. Make my living out of it.
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Garry wrote:
But if you're talking about oversize boxes the Dominion one was massive for what is just a card game. It was on my list to check out at Essen, but once I saw the box I crossed it off.



Looks like it's the right sized box to me. But if these box sizes bother people, shouldn't it be possible just to move the contents to a different container and ditch the box?

In the opposite situation, where the box ended up too small for all the contents:

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Jonathan Morton
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Incredible? I would say Shameful.


I would say "Normal". Over-large boxes annoy me too, but they're entirely standard. That said, Queen is probably the worst offender with a ton of air and strange shape to boot.

I wonder how the costs would work out if a game was produced in 2 different box sizes - one the standard over-inflated box, the other with the same foot print but half the height and no insert. Would the reduced shipping costs and savings on not having an insert be greater than the increased costs of managing two sizes and having lower volumes on each? I would think so, so then it becomes a question of whether or not the smaller box version would sell as well as the big box.
 
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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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I think you do not get the point.

First, I am not trying to compare Wabash Cannonball and Chicago Express. Not in size, not in price (both are targeted for different markets)

Second, A smaller box does not mean a smaller board or more folds. This picture proves it.


Third, obviously American & Canadian users are less concerned for space at their homes. I guess it is not the same in Europe, where our flats are not big enough to keep 100+ game collections.

Fourth, there are other many new Essen releases that have same the same box-size strategy. Some examples: Dominion or Cavum, just to mention a couple.

What I want to say that this box-size strategy has at least two goals:

1) Have more self-space in the store to attract attention

2) Create this perception that big-box means 30+€ game. Small box means 10-20€ game. For someone it means just 10€ more... for a company means, a 50% price increase.

Just as an example, The Name of the Rose and Diamonds Club from Ravensburger. Both selling at Essen around 20€. A bit smaller box size than Chicago Express, but similar boards and similar components.


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Jonathan Morton
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mcfer wrote:


Nicely done! Did you reinforce the cut edges with tape? I'd be concerned that they would rip easily.
 
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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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Yes, I made some marks along the box and cover so then I could cut with a sharp cutter following the line. Everything went smoothly, and then I had your idea. I did it today later after taking the pic.
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Steve Duff
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Wow, that's dedication to a cause. surprise
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Jason Miller
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mcfer wrote:
I think you do not get the point.

First, I am not trying to compare Wabash Cannonball and Chicago Express. Not in size, not in price (both are targeted for different markets)

Second, A smaller box does not mean a smaller board or more folds. This picture proves it.


Third, obviously American & Canadian users are less concerned for space at their homes. I guess it is not the same in Europe, where our flats are not big enough to keep 100+ game collections.

Fourth, there are other many new Essen releases that have same the same box-size strategy. Some examples: Dominion or Cavum, just to mention a couple.

What I want to say that this box-size strategy has at least two goals:

1) Have more self-space in the store to attract attention

2) Create this perception that big-box means 30+€ game. Small box means 10-20€ game. For someone it means just 10€ more... for a company means, a 50% price increase.

Just as an example, The Name of the Rose and Diamonds Club from Ravensburger. Both selling at Essen around 20€. A bit smaller box size than Chicago Express, but similar boards and similar components.




I totally agree with you on all of those points. I have plenty of space (well, I think I do (the fiance does not)), but I have a strong dislike for games that take up more space then they warrant - my microbadge says so too.
I appreciated Agricola's no-insert box design. Queen seems to make a business out of too-large boxes, and I consider that a waste of my money and resources.
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hmmm....

I know it has a lot of cards, but seriously...

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Will DeMorris
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At €30 Chicago Express was entirely in line price wise with many other titles at the show. Perhaps only the really large publishers such as Kosmos or Ravensburger could have lower price points due to economy of scale.

-Will
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Jaroslaw Kuczynski
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I've measured a few of my games and the most absurd one is:
Wings of War: Deluxe Set
In which the box is 27.5x27.5x8.6 (11"x11"x3.5") = 6503 cm3 (423.5 sqIn)
and the volume actually used by the game is 11% (778cm3) of that shake
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Fermin Uribetxebarria
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Well, it IS absurd, but you are talking about miniatures, which is completely different of wooden bits.

Anyway, I also agree and to prove it, I made some good use of my cutter and found place for the rest of my 9 miniatures in the box.



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Todd
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You've got to leave room for the expansion packs somewhere! I don't like cutting out part of the mold for the TTR 1910, but it's either that or carry around two boxes everywhere.

With Settlers, Knights and Cities, and Seafarers (+5&6 player expansions)I have three boxes to carry around because the boxes are small. I wish there was room in one of the boxes, but even two is really pushing it.
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