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Subject: discarding cards... rss

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bryan wills
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Hi,

Up to this point I've always discarded item cards to the bottom of their respective decks and before picking up new ones I would shuffle the deck before drawing new cards.

Ashcan Pete's character card made me think that this is wrong because he can look at the bottom of the deck before deciding whether to choose the top or bottom card and it brought up a couple of questions I'd like to pose to the experts here.

1) When an item card is used (i.e. holy water) or lost due to a character becoming insane for instance, are those items returned to the box, shuffled back into the deck, or placed at the bottom of the deck?

2) Are the item decks shuffled at the beginning of the game and then drawn from the top when needed? I think not because in the case of the ally cards sometimes the deck must be looked through for a specific one.

3) Does the rule on page 22 under Discarding Cards refer to the item decks when it says to shuffle most decks when they draw a card instructing them to do so?

Thanks for the input!!
Bryan
 
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brian
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1) Items are discarded to the bottom of the deck.

2) Common Items, Unique Items, Spells, Allies, Skills, and a few more with the expansions should distribute Fixed cards and rthen shuffle before random cards are give. The decks shouldn't be reshuffled any more after that.

3) No, this is only for the Arkham location cards.
 
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Michael Taylor
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Some cards, I believe, are removed from play. Elder signs, I think, are the most prominent of these. Some other items are treated the same way.

Mike
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Kai Peters
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Cards that are removed from play after use say so. If it reads 'discard' then it's to the bottom of the item deck, if it reads 'to the box' or the like it's removed from game entirely.
 
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brian
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DrMabuse wrote:
Wouldn't you reshuffle a deck after an encounter asks you to search for a particular item during the game? For example: "Search the Common Item deck for a Food card"

No. The rules don't say to do that.
 
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Daniel Cristofani
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
3) No, this is only for the Arkham location cards.


BZZZT! The rule on page 22 that says "Players only shuffle most decks when they draw a card that instructs them to do so" refers to things like "The Stars Are Right" Other World Encounter card and "The Story Continues..." Mythos card--cards that explicitly order you to reshuffle the deck in question.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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the majestic moose wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
3) No, this is only for the Arkham location cards.


BZZZT! The rule on page 22 that says "Players only shuffle most decks when they draw a card that instructs them to do so" refers to things like "The Stars Are Right" Other World Encounter card and "The Story Continues..." Mythos card--cards that explicitly order you to reshuffle the deck in question.


Moose, don't try to one-up Brian, you'll only embarrass yourself . In fact, if you'd read the next sentence, you'd have seen the "truth":

"Location decks, however, are shuffled before a player
draws from them. A player who draws multiple cards
from a Location deck draws them all, one after the other,
without shuffling between draws."

(same p. 22)
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brian
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Thanks Dam. I was failing at trying to respond diplomatically.

The question was specifically asked of Item decks - which contain no cards that prompt you to re-shuffle their respective decks. Arkham Location cards are the only decks regularly shuffled per the rules. Obvious exceptions are listed on the cards and are pretty clear cut.

I guess I should have crossed every T and dotted every I in my response but we really weren't talking about T's and I's.
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Daniel Cristofani
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Dam the Man wrote:
the majestic moose wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
3) No, this is only for the Arkham location cards.


BZZZT! The rule on page 22 that says "Players only shuffle most decks when they draw a card that instructs them to do so" refers to things like "The Stars Are Right" Other World Encounter card and "The Story Continues..." Mythos card--cards that explicitly order you to reshuffle the deck in question.


Moose, don't try to one-up Brian, you'll only embarrass yourself . In fact, if you'd read the next sentence, you'd have seen the "truth":

"Location decks, however, are shuffled before a player
draws from them. A player who draws multiple cards
from a Location deck draws them all, one after the other,
without shuffling between draws."

(same p. 22)


Yeah, I read that before I posted. The word "however" is used to draw a contrast between "most decks" and "Location decks", and the paragraph explains when to shuffle each kind. "Most decks" never get shuffled, unless you draw a card that orders you to reshuffle them (such as the two cards I mentioned); "Location decks", on the other hand, get reshuffled before you draw a card from them, although if you are going to draw two cards in a row (e.g. Darrell Simmons) you don't shuffle between cards.

Basically, I quoted the part about decks other than Location decks, and now you have quoted the part about Location decks.

The original poster said:

bwills wrote:
3) Does the rule on page 22 under Discarding Cards refer to the item decks when it says to shuffle most decks when they draw a card instructing them to do so?


This is a paraphrase of
The Arkham Horror Rulebook wrote:

Players only shuffle most decks when they draw a card that instructs them to do so.

which is the part of the paragraph that is NOT about location decks; it's about all the other decks, that only get shuffled when you draw a card that says to shuffle the deck. (Which in the case of the item decks is never.)

My best guess is that Brian didn't dig up page 22 to find that sentence, but instead read the original poster as far as "it says to shuffle most decks when they draw a card", and thought something like: "No, you don't shuffle item decks when you draw a card. You shuffle Arkham Location decks when you draw a card, and that's the only kind of deck that you shuffle when you draw a card."

And this was not unreasonable. It wouldn't be fair to expect Brian to actually dig through the rulebook every time he goes to answer a rules question, since he already has a solid grasp on the rules. I shouldn't have said "BZZZT". I think I was annoyed because of the negativity I've been getting when I've been reading the rules very carefully and trying to point out loopholes and discrepancies in an amusing way.

PS. Yes, I noticed that depending how you count, "Location decks" outnumber "most decks", and only two decks have a reshuffle card. So the paragraph is slightly misleading. Oh well.

PPS. Is anyone else seeing the backs of the Ancient Ones cards as a missed opportunity? I want to see "The Story So Far" about how Cthulhu became aware of the hideous sanity-eroding creatures he's sharing the planet with.
 
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Chris Linneman
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I've always wondered about discarded Allies (such as those you sacrifice to pass the Stars Are Right rumour). I always remove them from the game, which makes the most sense to me, but by the letter of the rules, they should merely be "discarded" to the bottom of the deck.
 
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brian
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QBert80 wrote:
I've always wondered about discarded Allies (such as those you sacrifice to pass the Stars Are Right rumour). I always remove them from the game, which makes the most sense to me, but by the letter of the rules, they should merely be "discarded" to the bottom of the deck.

With this rumor, they go back to the bottom of the Allies deck.

To the best of my knowledge, the only "discards" that break the rule of back to the bottom of the deck are the new Corruption cards in BGotW. In that case you discard to a discard pile and then the pile is out of the game. Why they didn't just stick with the "place back in the box" nomenclature, I am not sure.

And the only deck that is not clarified is the Cult Encounter deck. There is no mention of shuffling or discarding. But since it replaces the Arkham Encounter decks in some cases, I would treat it the same: shuffle before drawing and discard to the bottom.
 
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Daniel Cristofani
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Thanks Dam. I was failing at trying to respond diplomatically.


Fair enough

ColtsFan76 wrote:
The question was specifically asked of Item decks - which contain no cards that prompt you to re-shuffle their respective decks. Arkham Location cards are the only decks regularly shuffled per the rules. Obvious exceptions are listed on the cards and are pretty clear cut.

I guess I should have crossed every T and dotted every I in my response but we really weren't talking about T's and I's.


I can see how it would look like that. But...

The original poster said "is this sentence about Item decks" and you said "no, it's about Location decks", when in fact it was about every kind of deck except Location decks.

The sentence he was asking about basically says "for decks that aren't Location decks, shuffle them only if a card tells you to shuffle them", and that does apply to Item decks among others--you never reshuffle them, because no card ever tells you to. (Yeah, it's convoluted, but that sentence is where the rulebook says not to shuffle Item decks.)

Anyway, I was trying to say, "wait, no, that sentence isn't about Location decks, it's about cards that tell you to reshuffle."

And I can easily see how my comment would look irrelevant, if you thought the original poster had asked something like "am I supposed to shuffle Item decks before drawing from them."

Anyway. Sorry for saying "BZZZT".
 
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brian
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the majestic moose wrote:
The original poster said "is this sentence about Item decks" and you said "no, it's about Location decks", when in fact it was about every kind of deck except Location decks.

Actually he didn't say "sentance" he said "rule under this section" which would then encompass the whole section. Regardless, we all beat it to death by now and I think we are all on the same page, rule, and sentance now!

Quote:
Anyway. Sorry for saying "BZZZT".

No problem. The BZZZT is what set me off. I try my best to answer rules as complete as possible. But my pet peeve is when I am involved in an ongoing conversation and I feel the answer pertains to the flow of that conversation. Then someone comes along and tries to prove me wrong because I didn't state the one exception that involves something not discussed.

I am not infallible and I welcome everyone's comments, especially if I do miss something. But I am human too and I go defensive if I think I am being attacked, which is what I felt with the BZZZT. Sorry I jumped to conclusions.
 
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Robert
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
DrMabuse wrote:
Wouldn't you reshuffle a deck after an encounter asks you to search for a particular item during the game? For example: "Search the Common Item deck for a Food card"

No. The rules don't say to do that.


Sorry this is an old topic, but I'm reading the forums before I post a new question since the answers to the questions I have are probably already here.

Doesn't this mean if you are searching through a deck you can see what's coming up and base decisions about maybe going to get a common item from the general store (or advising other players to do so, since I can find no rule about table talk)?

Seems like that's a bit of unintended precognition...
 
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JH
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I just search from the bottom up — usually you'll find the item you want pretty quickly, and will either never get down to the level of the cards you've seen, or will forget what's coming up in what order. The worst that can happen is that you know all the Elder Signs are near the bottom, which sucks, but that's how it goes.
 
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John Anderson
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Yeah, personally I don't like that possibility so I usually search from the bottom, or search from the top and move all searched cards to the bottom. That still helps the drifter who can take from the bottom, but if you're lucky enough to be that character, so be it.

I tend not to ever shuffle the item decks during the game though. Note that what I just described is a house rule. As written, you search from the top until you find what you need, leaving the pile as is.
 
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Robert
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Perhaps I'm getting confused.

When you are in an Other World encounter, you draw and discard until you get the color of the realm that you are in. You specifically discard.

When you search through an item deck, I don't see any rule that says draw and discard until you find the first *fill in the blank (could be pistol, shotgun, elder sign, etc.)*. So by the rules, you'd just start thumbing through the appropriate deck, from the top, until you find it, then replace the cards in the order they were in, and probably blabbing to your fellow investigators that you had a premonition of a snazzy item being available the next trip to the General Store. You would not draw and discard (to the bottom of the deck) until you find what you are supposed to claim from the deck.

Drawing and discarding until you find your item would be a house rule, right? (a sensible one, perhaps, but still a house rule)
 
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brian
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The only official shuffling is prior to the game set up, the individula location decks and the two cards that instruct you to shuffle the Mythis and OW encounter deck. Everything else is supposedly covered on "discard to the bottom of its respective pile."

For the most part, this leaves all small cards in a bit of ambiguity. There are 3 main ways to handle this (that I can think of off the top of my head):

1) look from the bottom of the deck until you find the card you need.
2) loof from the top of the deck until you find the card you need and then discard all looked at cards to the bottom of the deck
3) look through the deck however you want and then shuffle it all up anyway.

I prefer 1 because I feel that is what the rules leave you with. I find it better to know what has come or isn't coming vs what is immediately coming. #2 is also a valid argument if you want to use the rules as a guideline since this is how OW encounters are handled. I think 3 goes beyond what the rules say but I can't argue if someone wants to shuffle that way.

So really, it is up to you and what makes the most sense for your group.
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