Colin Houghton
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I've searched the strings on this but couldn't lay my eyes on the answer (but I'm 99.9% sure it's been raised before):

1. You have two (or more) friendly units in a hex-

2. You decide to Group move them and roll for APs between them all(or give them 7APs if you play standard rules). No CAP cost so far.

3. They then all move in different directions, so they are all one hex away from each other-

4. If you want to continue the Group move, still using the remaining pool of APs, do you have to pay a CAP because they are no longer in the same hex? The rules on Group movement are not clear as to whether you determine whether you need to pay the CAP cost at the start of the activation only (and therefore it's no matter and no CAP cost if they all split up later) or whether the rule for paying a CAP cost counts at any point in the units' activation.

5. Finally, could you decide to "undo" the Group move at that point (or indeed even right at the start) and just use the remaining APs to move some of them one or more hexes away from the original hex, (at no CAP cost if they were previously in the same hex because it's no longer Group movement)?

This has just come up and we are playing: My take is:

4. = if you want to continue Group movement you have to pay the 1 CAP

and

5. That's allowable.

Sorry if I've missed the thread that answers this (yet again)



 
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James Palmer
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Once they're in different hexes, you'd have to pay the CAP. So yes, in the case you mention you would.

For vehicles that move multiple hexes, it would only matter where they started on that particular action (not activation). So if they start on the same hex, then split up, and then move more (because they can move multiple hexes) then you still don't have to pay the CAP.

But each action you have to pay the CAP if the units are starting that action not in the same hex.

5 is completely allowable - I'm sure it's described in the rules, if not explicitly than in an example. But you can definitely start performing individual actions with individual units - they just take away from everyone's AP.
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James Palmer
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In case my above comment is in any way unclear, my answer is that yes, you are playing it completely correctly.
 
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Just to piggy-back on Collin's question, and like Collin I'm pretty sure of the answer but I'm looking for validation.

Regardless of AP/CAP cost, if an active unit starts its move NOT adjacent to another unit but then moves adjacent to or into the hex of a friendly could both then group activate on a subsequent action?

Just to put it another way I'm thinking of the Monsters. I'm prepping to play the scenario for the first time and I'm assuming that what I describe is allowable otherwise the armor is so spread out the German advance is gonna be a bit disjointed (and slow).

PS - I say that last bit from ignorance, I'm just standing over the table scratching my head and drooling at the same time.
 
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James Palmer
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Yes, your one unit can "pick up" another unit along the way. This use of group actions really isn't described in the rules but Uwe clarified on another thread.

So you could activate Tank 1, move it 2 hexes to the same (or adjacent hex) of Tank 2, and the next action could move both tanks. You would be down the one AP from the first movement, but could use the rest of the APs towards group movement.
 
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Todd Arney
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Sorry for the bother Felkor, answered my own question here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/334771

I'll be playing that way.
 
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Sounds like you're doing things correctly. In concise (though perhaps cryptic) form, it's something like this:

Quote:
Perform one action with the one or more activated units (still) in contiguous hexes, optionally adding unused units in the same or adjacent hexes to the activated units, paying an +1 AP if the acting units occupy more than one hex.
 
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Mark Buetow
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Some clarifications:

If the units were activated as a group, the pool is available to any of the units until that activation is over.

Units that are adjacent may do something together, but with the added cost of 1 CAP per action

Units that are isolated from the group can do their own action but use the group's APs. (They can't do an action at the same time as the group, however).

When the activation is over, regardless of who used what, every unit in the group is flipped to "used."

Edit: Corrected to 1 CAP per action.
 
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Colin Houghton
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Thanks. All very helpful, but would be good to have this set out as clearly as we've done in this thread, in a fresh example in updated rules or Q&A, for those who play but don't regularly peruse these pages?
 
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Henric Blyvall
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Malacandra wrote:
Some clarifications:

Units that are adjacent may do something together, but with the added cost of 1 CAP (that 1 CAP is a one time cost; it's not per action).

I might be misunderstanding your answer, but I would say the CAP-cost is not a one time cost. It is per action the group undertakes.
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Malacandra wrote:
Some clarifications

Most of this is covered above, but...

Malacandra wrote:
If the units were activated as a group, the pool is available to any of the units until that activation is over.

As well as to any units added to the group.

Malacandra wrote:
Units that are adjacent may do something together, but with the added cost of 1 CAP (that 1 CAP is a one time cost; it's not per action).

No! The cost is per action.

Malacandra wrote:
Units that are isolated from the group can do their own action but use the group's APs. (They can't do an action at the same time as the group, however).

Simply put, you can act with any contiguous activated units.

Malacandra wrote:
When the activation is over, regardless of who used what, every unit in the group is flipped to "used."

More precisely, activated units are flipped when either their AP pool is exhausted or the role of active player changes.
 
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Colin Houghton
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Malacandra wrote:
Units that are adjacent may do something together, but with the added cost of 1 CAP (that 1 CAP is a one time cost; it's not per action).

Aldaron then said: "No! The cost is per action."


Woooooh! I thought it was a one-off 1CAP cost when you started the Group activation- where in the Rules does it say that it's for EACH action the Group takes when the units are not in the same hex? I must have missed that!

That makes it even less attractive to use, well certainly for movement.
 
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James Palmer
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The cost is definitely per action. It definitely makes group actions somewhat costly - but if co-ordinated properly, can still be a very effective move.
 
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Chou4555 wrote:
...where in the Rules does it say that it's for EACH action...

9.0, and several examples.

But it's easy to miss or misinterpret. All it says is: "A player must pay 1 CAP per group action ...", and if you're not working very hard to keep all the a-words straight in your head when you read this, you could easily conclude the wrong thing.

I think the confusion here is yet another example of the problem with using three terms that sound the same for very different but critically interconnected things: "action", "active player", and "activated units".

An action is something that all players alternate doing with their units, in a variety of ways using a variety of resources.

The the role of active player passes back and forth between players (when the active player passes), and grants one special ability: the option to use activated units.

Activated units are a set of units that the active player may optionally designate and then use for a special kind of action available only to him.

(The confusion is made worse by the occasional use of "an activation" to refer a player's tenure as the active player, and "reacting player" to identify the player who is not the active player. All of this is unfortunate, because the whole action mechanism is actually quite elegant and straightforward.)
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Colin Houghton
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James, Aldaron

Thanks, and sorry to always seem like Mr Thicky bringing up the rear gulp- it is clear as you say when you focus, and as long as you have clear in your noddle the differences between the "a" words.

Maybe a set of careful definitions for "tricky" words such as these win the Q&A or Rules?
 
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James Palmer
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I think this game could benefit from a good Almanac / Glossary. If/when I get some spare time, I might put one together.
 
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Felkor wrote:
I think this game could benefit from a good Almanac / Glossary. If/when I get some spare time, I might put one together.

I disagree. Glossaries are always a sign that the rules have broken down somehow (GMT is famous for giving up right a the start, by putting their glossary ahead of the rules, so they make no sense and have no context). Terms should be few and and clear from context. CoH, in particular, has such an elegant system that I don't think a glossary is required.
 
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Aldaron wrote:
Felkor wrote:
I think this game could benefit from a good Almanac / Glossary. If/when I get some spare time, I might put one together.

I disagree. Glossaries are always a sign that the rules have broken down somehow (GMT is famous for giving up right a the start, by putting their glossary ahead of the rules, so they make no sense and have no context). Terms should be few and and clear from context. CoH, in particular, has such an elegant system that I don't think a glossary is required.


I believe all the information required is in the rules (or at least will be on the next update.)

The problem comes with the format of the rules. The rules are in a programmed fashion - that is, you only get rules as you need them as you go through the firefight. Well this is excellent for beginners, it makes it hard to find something in the manual, since certain things that should be together aren't together because you don't need to learn them at the same time.

I think the programmed format is great, but it makes using the rules as a reference book far more difficult. I think it could be beneficial to have the rules in a way that's easier to look things up could be helpful. Having a good index at the back of the current manual would probably be quite helpful too.

It's like learning a new language. At first you want a "Speaking French for Dummies" kind of book, that leads you through all the grammar, and gets you from the point of not being able to speak it at all to being able to speak it in a basic way. Once you've been speaking it though, that introductory book isn't so helpful, and you'd rather go to an English/French dictionary or some other kind of reference book because it's faster to find information and is more detailed.

Especially as the series expands and rules will span multiple modules/expansions, then some kind of reference document will, in my opinion, become quite useful.
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Felkor wrote:
Especially as the series expands and rules will span multiple modules/expansions, then some kind of reference document will, in my opinion, become quite useful.

Agreed. (And I wasn't disagreeing that you would make a great glossary; I quoted too much of your post.) I just think that such a reference can define most, and maybe even all, terms in context, rather than in a separate glossary.
 
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James Palmer
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Aldaron wrote:
Felkor wrote:
Especially as the series expands and rules will span multiple modules/expansions, then some kind of reference document will, in my opinion, become quite useful.

Agreed. (And I wasn't disagreeing that you would make a great glossary; I quoted too much of your post.) I just think that such a reference can define most, and maybe even all, terms in context, rather than in a separate glossary.


Perhaps Glossary was not the term I should have used.

Have you played Settlers of Catan? I was thinking of the Almanac that comes with that game. The manual is very useful, but once you've played the game a few times, then when you have rules questions, you go back to the Almanac rather than the manual, as it has everything in it in a way that is quick and easy to look up.

That's what I was thinking would be good to have.
 
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Well, here are a few thoughts...

A glossary would be useful to ensure terms are consistently defined (e.g. the difference between foot units and infantry squads or fortifications and hindrances). But I also agree that it should not need to be constantly referenced from the rules in order to make sense of them. The first rule to use the term should define it, after that you should know and if not then its in the glossary !

The almanac idea is interesting... Its a bit like the difference between Squad Leader (Programmed rules like CoH)or the ASL Starter kits (which provide a subset of the relevant rules) and the full ASL reference manual. With the advent of rules on the internet (ASL owners has never been keen on this) I see no issue with having both.. The game comes with paper programmed rules perhaps but the WEB version would be a 'reference' set of rules. SO for instance if the expansion introduces some new types of fortification then the programmed set with the expansion would only include the new stuff while the reference set would group the new stuff with the old stuff (ie. all fortification rules in one section of rules about 'fortifications').


Of course COH is nowhere near as complex (thankfully) as ASL so you could argue that no 'reference' version is needed but I think it will help in development of rules and consistency as well as simplifying the rules for devotees (of which I expect there will be many)

Will.
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Aldaron wrote:
Chou4555 wrote:
...where in the Rules does it say that it's for EACH action...

I think the confusion here is yet another example of the problem with using three terms that sound the same for very different but critically interconnected things: "action", "active player", and "activated units".


Aldaron,
I agree that the terms can be confusing, especially to people for whom English is not their first language. Does anyone have any ideas of substitute words that would work better?
Uwe
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uweeickert wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas of substitute words that would work better?

Actually, I think the three basic terms are all good and should be kept: they capture what's going on nicely (though it's unfortunate they all begin with 'A'). I think the key thing is to tidy up the presentation of the turn structure (as has been discussed elsewhere) and provide clear definitions for the three key terms (as discussed above).

I think it is also important to eliminate the terms "reacting player" and "an activation". The former has resulted in a lot of confusion about "reacting" and "responding" and I think can be avoided entirely ("the other player(s)" is enough). The latter probably isn't necessary at all. In fact, I think a good test of whether the presentation of the flow of actions is clear is if you can comfortably dispense with these two terms (with explicit phrases like "becomes the active player" or "while he is the active player" or "since becoming the active player").

EDIT: Link to good example.
 
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