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Subject: END the IRAQ War! rss

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Robert Wesley
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cool As our newly elected and selected for service "PREZ", then we implore YOU on this NOW! cool
"who dares wins"
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Teacher Fletcher
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I hope to see the troops coming hope immediately upon BO's first month in office.
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John W
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This one issue is going to seriously test Obama's resolve, follow-thru, and political clout.

It may just show everyone how utterly unable to affect goverment policy a president is without the serious backing of the majority party and the American people.

I will be shocked if we aren;t still in Iraq in a significant fashion 2 years from today.
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Kenneth Bailey
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Leaving immediately would solve the problem wouldn't it? Maybe we can abandon the government of Iraq like we did the government of South Vietnam.

I don't think Obama is going to leave Iraq as quickly as some will want. He might be able to get some support from other countries so that we can pull some troops out. But I doubt it.
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Teacher Fletcher
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I am fine with a phased withdrawal, as President Obama has proposed.






(It feels really good to say "President Obama".)
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Kenneth Bailey
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Bathtub Hoax wrote:
I am fine with a phased withdrawal, as President Obama has proposed.






(It feels really good to say "President Obama".)

I would hope that President Obama will evaluate the situation on the ground there. Make sure that the Iraqi military can stand on its own and not leave the country to the wolves.
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Ernest Roth

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I'll say up front that I'm a soldier with three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan so my views are probably not too mainstream.

For what it's worth neither Iraq nor Afghanistan are going to end real soon. Alot of Americans seem to think the new president will have the same decision making authority as Oliver Cromwell did after he dismissed the English parliament in 1653. And we all know congress is not going to be recessed for a couple of years.

Therefore, the slow moving democratic process will take place. And since it does not look like democrats are going to gain a 60% majority in the senate or expand their majority in the house, the political process will remain very slow.

I have been a soldier for a fair number of years now. During that time I have been deployed as just much under democratic leadership as under republican leadership. To folks in the military it really doesn't matter who is president or controls congress; we are going to be sent somewhere to do something. The above is not a complaint by the way, just a fact.

I do have a question for the people who believe President Elect Obama will bring positive change to the USA.

What will your reaction be if he pulls the military out of Iraq and inserts it into say the Sudan or Darfur to "Stop the killing and bring stability to people who need it."

Those places have the potential to get just as ugly, casualty and policy wise, to the American people as Iraq has been. If that were to happen, and I hope it does not, it will be interesting to read the posts on RSP concerning policy and the president's competency, intelligence, etc.

Ernest Roth



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greif8 wrote:

What will your reaction be if he pulls the military out of Iraq and inserts it into say the Sudan or Darfur to "Stop the killing and bring stability to people who need it."



Same as every other war.

It goes well best president eva!!!!
It goes badly I never liked him anyway.
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Bryan Johnson
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greif8 wrote:
I do have a question for the people who believe President Elect Obama will bring positive change to the USA.

What will your reaction be if he pulls the military out of Iraq and inserts it into say the Sudan or Darfur to "Stop the killing and bring stability to people who need it."

Those places have the potential to get just as ugly, casualty and policy wise, to the American people as Iraq has been. If that were to happen, and I hope it does not, it will be interesting to read the posts on RSP concerning policy and the president's competency, intelligence, etc.


Ernest, thanks for your service to our country and giving your heartfelt answer. I am not an Obama supporter. I should also point out that I did vote on Tuesday, but it wasn't for McCain either. I voted third party this time. In an answer to your question, I think something should be done in Darfur, and I think it is long overdue. I am not talking about a full-scale US invasion here, but the international community must stand together.



It is insanity that nothing is being done.


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Michael Barlow
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I really feel sorry for you people.


He's removing soldiers from Iraq and sticking them in Afghanistan (and hopefully not Syria, Pakistan, and Iran). And he's waffling on the private contractor issue.

And where are all those soldiers coming from?

Jobs, jobs, jobs?
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My thoughts on pulling out of Iraq.
We - and here I mean all the nations of that srange beast the "coalition of the willing" went into Iraq, (my suspicion is that we were manipulated with deliberately false info by members of the Bush administration), where we killed a lot of innocent people and are resposible for the deaths of some 400,000 more. We de-stabilised the country.

I think we have ethical and moral responsibilities to the people of Iraq - if we the people of the nations making up the coalition of the willing have not yet got control of our leaders then thats our problem, not the problem of the people of Iraq.

So I think we should stay until we have the country in better shape than before we arrived - we can measure this in terms of GDP, longevity, literacy and perceived life satifaction.

Unless our staying is of minimal or negative effect in establishing a better Iraq. If that is the case I support withdrawal.
 
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I'm all for ending the war as soon as possible.

I have a question, though - are you really saying you would want to pull out 100% today? (I'm seriously asking.)

It seems to me if we just pulled out completeliy immidiately that some or all of these things would be the result:

1. Civil war.
2. Terrorists gain an entreched base, either Iran-backed terrorists or Al Quaeda, or both.
3. Iran moves in to fill the vacuum we leave.
4. The Arab world hates us even more for leaving the place in ruins.
5. A military dictator takes power, since the Iraqi military seems to be back on it's feet now more or less.


What you do you think would happen?

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William Boykin
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We won't be going into Darfur anytime soon. Oil was found off of the coast there, and guess who the main investor is for it?

No, not who you think.

Its China.

China has consistently blocked all attempts for the UN Security Council to intervene.


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3847

So, unless you're willing to create another Coalition of the Willing (ala Iraq), the US will not be intervening in Darfur.

Which is a tremendous shame. The Security Council and the UN has increasingly shown that it is incapable of taking action EARLY ON in crises like these. Bush, going into Iraq with the Coalition of the Willing was not wrong in and of itself. What was wrong was mishandling the war.

Fact remains- there are times when the UN will not do ANYTHING until it is WAAAY too late. Darfur is one of them.

Darilian
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There is no war.. it has been a 5 year occupation.
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UA Darth
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cull wrote:
I'm all for ending the war as soon as possible.

I have a question, though - are you really saying you would want to pull out 100% today? (I'm seriously asking.)

It seems to me if we just pulled out completeliy immidiately that some or all of these things would be the result:

1. Civil war.
2. Terrorists gain an entreched base, either Iran-backed terrorists or Al Quaeda, or both.
3. Iran moves in to fill the vacuum we leave.
4. The Arab world hates us even more for leaving the place in ruins.
5. A military dictator takes power, since the Iraqi military seems to be back on it's feet now more or less.


What you do you think would happen?



The same thing that will happen if we stayed another 100 years before withdrawal.
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Ernest Roth

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Pinook wrote:
My thoughts on pulling out of Iraq.
We - and here I mean all the nations of that srange beast the "coalition of the willing" went into Iraq, (my suspicion is that we were manipulated with deliberately false info by members of the Bush administration), where we killed a lot of innocent people and are resposible for the deaths of some 400,000 more. We de-stabilised the country.


Have you been to Iraq to confirm your statement above? I have spent a total of 27 months there over two deployments and your 400,000 Iraqi deaths would average about 6000 per month since April 2003. Sorry to burst your bubble, but even during the months of the worst fighting the casualty rate has not been remotely close to 6000 dead per month.

Also, please define "alot" and "innocent" and how those are different from the other alleged 400,000. Are you saying the 400,000 other dead were insurgents, terrorists or just garden variety enemy personnel, in which case, as an infantryman, I have to ask "What's the problem?"

If you are saying those alleged 400,000 were killed by insurgents or terrorists because they support the presence of coalition forces in Iraq or because they were working internally to stablize their country for a better future then who is really responsible for there deaths? I say the ones who killed them are responsible.

I read alot on the forums and rarely post. Alot of what I read are purported "facts" about Iraq or the GWOT by people who have never been to any of the places they are talking about.

I have stated before that I have three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and will be going to one or the other again in the fairly near future. I have also been in Somalia, Bosnia and Kosovo.

I have never done this, but if the forum at large is interested, I am willing to state my views about our involvement in those places and how they are related and impacts US policy today. You may be surprised to hear that I am not always very positive about our government, regardless of which party is in power.

Again, if folks are interested, I'll be happy to post some of my experiences and views in the above places. If no, I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

Ernest Roth




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lotus dweller
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I see the best figures to be the survey "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional cluster sample survey". By Gilbert Burnham, Riyadh Lafta, Shannon Doocy, and Les Roberts, published in the Lancet, 11 October 2006, estimating 601,027 (426,369–793,663) deaths due to violence.

We go in, the death rate due to violence goes up, we are responsible for the increase in deaths.

I break into a house, the owner shoots his wife, I am responsible.

I am very interested in hearing more about your experiences in Iraq.

Edit: The total number of deaths above that expected from the pre-invasion death rate was an additional 654,965 (392,979–942,636).

Edit: innocent - not actively involved in, nor physically supporting, nor organising, nor recruiting, nor actively promoting armed resistance to the occupying forces.
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Michael Barlow
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greif8 wrote:

Have you been to Iraq to confirm your statement above? I have spent a total of 27 months there over two deployments and your 400,000 Iraqi deaths would average about 6000 per month since April 2003.


report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan #1

report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan # 2

report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan # 3

news report about estimated number of civilian deaths in Iraq

article about discrepencies
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Eugene Zehner
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Reprint wrote:
greif8 wrote:

Have you been to Iraq to confirm your statement above? I have spent a total of 27 months there over two deployments and your 400,000 Iraqi deaths would average about 6000 per month since April 2003.


report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan #1

report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan # 2

report on total casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan # 3

news report about estimated number of civilian deaths in Iraq

article about discrepencies


Are you trying to illustrate the discrepancies with casualty reporting systems with these sites?

I think the last two URLs have the most credibility for me. Following the links in the WSJ article was especially illuminating.

Take Care,

Gene Z
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Michael Barlow
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Not at all. To find "truth" these days, one must find as many sources as possible and find the middle ground. No one source should be more credible than another.
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Reprint wrote:
Not at all. To find "truth" these days, one must find as many sources as possible and find the middle ground. No one source should be more credible than another.

I'd suggest that there are many times that this approach will fail - to see an example, put yourself back 20 years in time and then use your approach to find the "truth" about stomach ulcers.

edit: spelling
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Quote:
I'd suggest that there are many times that this approach will fail - to see an example, put yourself back 20 years in time and then use your approach to find the "truth" about stomach ulcers.


I'm not sure I understand your example, this argument seems more about lack of knowledge than truth.
 
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Method suggested was: "find as many sources as possible and find the middle ground". This was said to "find "truth"".

 
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Ah, my bad, I was taking the "middle ground" comment to have been stated within the context of the preceeding posts about the validity of various media sources and the possible "truth" involved in the accuracy of the information they provide. If we are shifting context to assess the possibility of taking the "middle ground" to mean in all matters of knowledge and understanding then I will concede that going back twenty years and assesing the same argument under the context of knowledge about stomach ulcers and their causes then yes, you are correct, taking the middle ground is not always the best way. Sorry for the confusion, I was unaware of the context in which you made said comment.
 
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I think we should withdraw from Germany. Isn't that war over?
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