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Subject: VINETA : Play a swap card on a district with "quarantine effect" rss

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fred fred
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Hello,

When only two districts left and One of the two districts has some houses in quarantine, the other district has "normal" houses, is it possible to play a swap card ?

Thanx
 
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Steph Mabie
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The swap card would be discarded, since there'd be no way to swap between two provinces.
 
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Chris Johnson
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What do you base that on?

Going by the principles utilized in the FAQs, and the logic in the rules, the fact that you can't move any pieces out of the quarantined district shouldn't stop you from "swapping" houses in.

Just like you could "swap" an occupied district with an empty one.

 
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Jon Ben
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swmabie wrote:
The swap card would be discarded, since there'd be no way to swap between two provinces.


If it were true that a quarantined district could not be the target of the swap card this would not mean that the card is discarded, that would only be the case if there were no other legal targets for the card.

Although the rules are far from explicit on this point, I would agree with Chris that you can choose a quarantined district for the swap but houses therein cannot be moved, but of course houses can be moved to the quarantined district. The rules state that quarantine takes priority over the swap card, not that it prevents the swap card from targeting a quarantined district. This is not a clear ruling, but I think it lends credence to this interpretation of the rules.

So the only way for the swap to have no effect is for you to target two districts with the exact same number and type of houses (including two empty districts), two quarantined districts, or an empty district and a quarantined district (which might also be empty). Clear enough?
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Marco Favaretto
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The God Card Quick Reference doc found on Winning Moves website (http://www.winning-moves.com/Images/God_Card_Quick_Reference...) clearly supports Chris interpretation (the bold in the following is mine):

Quarantine
(1 card)
Play this card on a district. No house can be removed from this district until the end of the round. For better identification, put all houses on their sides. Any houses added to the chosen district this round due to the play of a card (Panic, Rescue, False Hope) also fall under the protection of Quarantine. This card has priority over the action cards “Rescue,” “False Hope,” Move,” and “Panic”; i.e. these 4 cards may not be used to move houses out of a district that has been blocked by a “Quarantine” card.

Ciao
Marco
 
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Steph Mabie
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fnord23 wrote:
What do you base that on?


Pure and utter logic, applied to the rules as written.

First, as one of y'all quoted already,

Quote:
Any houses added to the chosen district this round due to the play of a card (Panic, Rescue, False Hope) also fall under the protection of Quarantine.


It does not say "Panic, Rescue, False Hope, Move." Move is in fact not included in this list. It is included in the other list (“'Rescue,' 'False Hope,' 'Move,' and 'Panic'”), which reiterates the other cards as well, so either it was an accidental exclusion, or an intentional one. Unless they specifically say otherwise (and to my knowledge, they have not), then I would interpret the omission to be intentional.

Second, the fact that Quarantine takes priority Move doesn't make your interpretation so, either. It simply means that you cannot Move a district that has been Quarantined. That's as much having priority as your interpretation. And my interpretation is actually following the rules explicitly.

Third, a Quarantined district is not identical to an empty one. It is a restricted district, from which no followers may be moved. An empty one is a null set. Move swaps two districts. If one district is empty, that means that that district is getting the new followers for free. If one district is Quarantined, then it is restricted from paying the price for those followers, and thus they do not Move.

So that's how I can say that. If Winning Moves publishes an errata saying my interpretation is incorrect, then fine, I'm wrong. But at least my interpretation doesn't change any rules. :D
 
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Chris Johnson
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Yeah...you may want to go absorb the FAQ, then get back to us.

As it stands, the existing rulings and rules support the rest of us, rather than you.

You can play however you can convince others to agree with, but I'm afraid you don't have much behind you other than your say-so.
 
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Steph Mabie
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fnord23 wrote:
Yeah...you may want to go absorb the FAQ, then get back to us.


I did absorb the FAQ. Nowhere in it did it say that I was wrong and you were right.
So why don't you go back to the FAQ and absorb it, because obviously you failed to clearly read what it said.

It said that followers could be "False Hope"d, "Panic"d, and "Rescue"d. It did not say that they could be "Move"d into a "Quarantine"d district. Therefor, they can't. Unless you want to make stuff up to say that it's supposed to be there, but someone hasn't admitted that they excluded it by accident.

Quote:
As it stands, the existing rulings and rules support the rest of us, rather than you.


No, they don't. Unless you want to make rules up out of thin air. I'm using the words exact words to support my position. You're using things that aren't there to do so.

Quote:
You can play however you can convince others to agree with, but I'm afraid you don't have much behind you other than your say-so.


Its as much your say-so as it is anyone else's. Get the developer to respond, and I'll be happy to concede. But, otherwise, get off your f'ing high horse, and stop being a prick.

I've been polite. I've explained the position I've taken, in much more explicit detail than Your Arrogant Self has, btw. So stop being rude, and actually use facts to support your case.

Sheesh. shake
 
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Chris Johnson
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Yeah. You've been (mostly) polite, but that doesn't change that you're (mostly) wrong. :)

I'm not going to get into a full-blown rules argument on a minor point for an even more minor game with someone who clearly doesn't get it. So, here’s my last (brief, yet hopefully enlightening) attempt (Multiple people have gone through this already, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering...):

I was recomending you absorb the FAQ (and the rules!) not because it covers this case specifically, but rather in the (apparently vain) hope that you might absorb the principles that seem to be guiding the rules and rulings.

The primary one in this case is that you carry out as much of a card's instructions as possible.

The implications of that principle to this case are clear (to everyone except you). Hopefully, it will sink (ha!) in. But, if you choose not to get it at this point, that is your business, and your problem.

Again, you can play however you can convince people to, but that doesn't make you "correct". Just because you've constructed something approaching a logical position in a vacuum isolated from the priciples of the actual rules and FAQ, that doesn't make you any different (or any more fun) than any other rules lawyer.

I'm done with this; if you want to continue on, have fun. :)
 
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Steph Mabie
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As you keep asking me to look at the rule and the FAQ (which obviously you yourself are unable to read), I'm going to do so one more time.

Ahem.

From the website's rules list for the god cards:
Quote:
Move
(1 card)
Exchange all houses of any 2 districts. Both districts may be unoccupied. If you choose an unoccupied district, relocate only the houses of the other district.


Does not say
* If you choose an unoccupied or Quarantined district...

Quote:
Quarantine
(1 card)
Play this card on a district. No house can be removed from this district until the end of the round. For better identification, put all houses on their sides. Any houses added to the chosen district this round due to the play of a card (Panic, Rescue, False Hope) also fall under the protection of Quarantine. This card has priority over the action cards “Rescue,” “False Hope,” Move,” and “Panic”; i.e. these 4 cards may not be used to move houses out of a district that has been blocked by a “Quarantine” card.


Does not say any of the following:
* ... due to the play of a card (Panic, Rescue, False Hope, Move) ...
* ... due to the play of a card (such as Panic) ...
* ... due to the play of a card (Panic, Rescue, etc) ...
* ... due to the play of a card (eg Panic) ...
* Treat this district as if it had no houses until the end of the round.

And, for the record, what I'm positing that the rules say doesn't contradict the last sentence; Move doesn't move anything from the district; but doesn't succeed in moving things there, either.

From the FAQ:
Quote:
I played the Swap card. Can I choose a district with no houses?
Yes. The houses would swap into the district with no houses, leaving the other one empty.


Does not say:
* Can I choose a Quarantined district?

Quote:
Does the district I play Quarantine on have to have houses in it?
No. Houses can be added to the district later in the round, but the district needn’t have houses on it to play the Quarantine card on it.


Does not say anything about Move.

(When I get home, I'll add anything else pertinent from the Rules, but until then...)

And none of the other rules or FAQs pertain to the Move card.

------------------------------

Now, I fully and clearly state that they are Poorly Written rules. They could and should have stated more succinctly what the ruling should be. And thus, until such time as they do so, we can only be left with the rules that they have written.

However, the rules, as poorly written as they may be, do have only one single Meaning, even if that was not the intended meaning. And rules that have only one meaning are rules. (5+ years of PBEM Diplomacy GMing... *sigh*)

So on your say-so, we can break the rules, because that's what you think was intended. Or by following the rules, we can do what I've suggested above.

Am I ultimately right? Don't know; like I said, they didn't make it clearly explicit, only implicitly explicit. But they omitted the Move card from one list, and one sentence later included it. And elsewhere in the rules, they've clearly stated (with Changing Wind, for example) what to do when you couldn't follow the explicit rules; but they did not do so with Move. Maybe poor editing, maybe not. Not for me to say.

And I don't care how many people can't properly read rules. Over 50% of Americans think that the President is elected by popular vote; doesn't make them right. (Nor should they be.)

All I know is the OP asked a question, and I gave the answer that best fit the rules as written. Everyone else has insisted that they don't, but not once has anyone -- yourself included -- done more than interpret on your own say-so. I've given support for my position, and nobody -- yourself included -- has shown where the rules state explicitly otherwise.

So please, stop telling me to read the bloody rules and FAQ. And do so yourself, 'kay?
 
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Marco Favaretto
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Hi Steph,
I don't want to enter a fight however I'd like to offer the explaination of my reading of the rules.

Given that the rules are poorly written, and prone to ambiguity over this very point, my reasoning is:

1. The "Move" card says,
Quote:
Exchange all houses of any 2 districts. Both districts may be unoccupied. If you choose an unoccupied district, relocate only the houses of the other district.

This is the base rule which explains what happens when you play the "Move" card.

2. The "Quarantine" card clearly sets an exception to that base rule dictating that
Quote:
This card has priority over the action cards “Rescue,” “False Hope,” Move,” and “Panic”; i.e. these 4 cards may not be used to move houses out of a district that has been blocked by a “Quarantine” card.

However, the exception explicitly acts just on the "move houses out of the district" part of the base rule. So I assume the rest of the base rule still stand valid, hence you can move houses into a quarantined district.

Extending the exception to the whole base rule would have required to explicitly say, "these 4 cards may not be used to move houses in or out of a district that has been blocked by a “Quarantine” card".

Your reading of the rules seems to create that "in or" clause "out of thin air", to use your words

3. The FAQ says,
Quote:
Does the district I play Quarantine on have to have houses in it?
No. Houses can be added to the district later in the round, but the district needn’t have houses on it to play the Quarantine card on it.


Since you can add houses to a quarantined district, why should Move be forbidden to do so, when it's not explicitly said anywhere in the rules?

So, in the end, the Quarantine card description is ambiguous, since either you assume that the "Move" card should've appeared in both lists, or you assume that it should have explicitly excluded the "move into" part of the action.

Ciao
Marco
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Steph Mabie
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(See? I knew that someone could be rational around here... )

Marco:

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. Frankly, I feel like I'm the one whose been attacked, not vice versa. (Being told to defend one's interpretation without the other side giving the same consideration is being attacked, IMO.)

We agree on one thing: The rule is poorly written, and it's clear that it would be very nice (at least to some) that TPTB ought to make an addendum to their FAQ about it.

I also agree with you that the interpretation I'm taking leaves something to be desired.

But here's my take:
The other 5 action cards (Clear Seas, Changing Wind, False Hope, Panic, & Rescue) are all essentially "taking" cards, be it taking from a wave pile (which, btw, Changing Wind does have a clear statement of what to do if you can't follow it explicitly), or from a district. And Quarantine is a card to prevent something being taken from it; so it allowing the receiving from the other cards makes sense to me.

Move, however, is In My Opinion an Exchange. For example, if you go to your FLGS, and give them a credit card that past it's limit, then they aren't going to give you a game in return. Instead, they gt to keep their game, and you get to keep your bad card. Now, if they agree to give it to you for Free, that's something else entirely; you're not having to bounce a check to get the game.

To my understanding, that's what Move is. It's a fair exchange. And if, IMO, one of the sides is unable to pay it's side of the barter, then the other side isn't going to give it up either.

Its all about interpretation, I admit. But, as I said, there's the addition that they failed to include Move in the first list, and did include it in the second. So, to me, that means that it is excluded from that list, whether intentional or not, and until TPTB choose otherwise...

However, I do appreciate your explanation. And while I disagree with you in strict interpretation, I do agree with you in principle; but rules aren't meant to be broken...

(And, for the record, this isn't just a hypothetical to me; in our first game, on the last turn of the last round, my wife played Quarantine on the district that wasn't sinking just before I played Move; so instead of me getting 6 pts for the 2 followers I would have saved, she got 2 pts for them and 3 for the one she had on the last district. As a result, I lost. *shrug* I don't have to like the rules, just have to follow them, IMO.)
 
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Marco Favaretto
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Well, Steph, it happens that you were right after all!

I managed to get in touch with both Fabiano Onça and Mauricio Gibrin, two of the three authors. Here's what they wrote me in their last email:

Quote:
Dear Marco,

- Q1: can you play a Move card on a Quarantined district?
- A1: No, you can't - a district under quarantine cannot be a target of an action of this type.

- Q2: if yes, can you move houses INTO the Quarantined district per effect of the Move card?
- A2: does not apply, as per A1. Note that you're allowed to enter houses in a Quarantined district in other ways, though.

Yes, that would be our official answers. Since the swap requirement of the Move card cannot be fulfilled with a Quarantined district, that play is void. If all but one of the districts are Quarantined, Move cards must be discarded without effect (just as a card that moves a cataclysm is discarded when no cataclysm is in play).

Note, however, that you can play with 'house rules' that allow this kind of play (that would make the Move card a one-way march to destruction) - just make sure everybody is aware of this rule change before game starts.

Best regards!

Mauricio Gibrin

I think the question is settled (and your wife's victory stands confirmed, much to her satisfaction I guess )

I'd like to thanks Fabiano and Mauricio for their kind help.

Ciao
Marco
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Chris Johnson
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I stand corrected. :/

I will note that this ruling does not follow the same principles that were at work in the responses to the other FAQs, but, whatever; the designers get to make the call.
 
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