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Subject: Drawing 2 cards and keeping both? rss

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Teacher Fletcher
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Is it just me, or does anyone else dislike the rules as written, where when you draw 2 cards you have to choose 1 and put the other back on the bottom of the deck?

After coming back to Citadels after a long time away, I'd forgotten this rule, and explained the game instead as "you get a choice of 2 cards or 2 gold."

I find I like the game better this new way. It moves along much faster. With the rules as written, it's too easy to grind to a halt, since you can earn income much more easily than you can get cards into your hand. And since you can only build one building of each type, it's easy to get screwed by card draw if you can't cycle through them fast enough.

Also, 2-character-per-turn is becoming my new favorite way to play, and this combined with the 2 cards per draw makes it a very fast paced and fun game.

Thoughts?
 
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Bryan Maxwell
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I haven't played this way, but if it works for you and your group, have fun!
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Greg Jones
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Yes, it's easier to get gold than cards. But you also need more gold than cards. To build a card, you need one card and one or more gold. If you make cards as easy to get as gold, then your ability to build is going to be almost entirely limited by gold. You won't even worry about cards - just draw some whenever you eventually need them.

For people used to other games, that makes perfect sense. Most games are limited by the resources, such as money, not the cards. But Citadels intentionally makes the cards a kind of resource. That's the true value of the Architect - the ability to draw two cards. The ability to build three is of secondary importance. That's the value of the Magician. I think with your change those roles would become much less valuable.

Of course you're right. The game does tend to stall. This might be on purpose. When it stalls, it gives a chance to attack the leader. This makes the game more of a fight than a race. But, to each his own. If you like a more fast-paced game then your idea is probably good for you.
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morningstar wrote:
Yes, it's easier to get gold than cards. But you also need more gold than cards. To build a card, you need one card and one or more gold. If you make cards as easy to get as gold, then your ability to build is going to be almost entirely limited by gold. You won't even worry about cards - just draw some whenever you eventually need them.

For people used to other games, that makes perfect sense. Most games are limited by the resources, such as money, not the cards. But Citadels intentionally makes the cards a kind of resource. That's the true value of the Architect - the ability to draw two cards. The ability to build three is of secondary importance. That's the value of the Magician. I think with your change those roles would become much less valuable.

Of course you're right. The game does tend to stall. This might be on purpose. When it stalls, it gives a chance to attack the leader. This makes the game more of a fight than a race. But, to each his own. If you like a more fast-paced game then your idea is probably good for you.
Agree. If you want to speed up the game, keep the draw 2, discard one of those cards rule and just use the variant in the rulebook..... let the last round be when someone has built at least 7 or even 6 districts instead of the usual 8.
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King of the Dead
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ackmondual wrote:
]Agree. If you want to speed up the game, keep the draw 2, discard one of those cards rule and just use the variant in the rulebook..... let the last round be when someone has built at least 7 or even 6 districts instead of the usual 8.


I think the OP meant more the pacing within the game as opposed to the overall game length.

OP's solution solves the former where yours solves the latter.
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Just to throw it out there, alternatively, one could always just draw one card and keep that to keep pacing moving along.
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Teacher Fletcher
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Correct, I'm speaking of pacing, not overall game length.

After a few more games trying it with both original rules and with my modification, I'm going to stick with "draw 2 cards and keep them." It just makes it for a brisker, better game, in my view.

By the way, I consider the Architect completely broken and *NEVER* play with him. Not only is drawing 2 cards overpowered within the original ruleset, but being able to build three districts is degenerate. This is a game about seizing opportunity, and with the Architect in the deck the game becomes one-dimensional: you either pick the Architect or stop the player picking the architect.

The Navigator is much nicer, as his 4 cards or 4 gold bonus comes with the steep cost of losing an opportunity to build that turn.

Thanks for your input!
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Each group is different and one is certainly able to use whatever works. For newcomers, it can slow things down to choose between 2 cards. However, once people get familiar with the game, I find this isn't an issue. There aren't that many types of cards in this game to begin with, so the decisions between choosing one of two cards is often fast, much like an experienced Puerto Rico player to toss out an example.
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Teacher Fletcher
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ackmond, I'm not speaking of the time it takes to choose between the two cards (although that does compound it), I'm speaking about the fact that one is drawing half as many cards as one is gold. So the pacing of the game drags down -- you have to take a fair amount of turns where you just draw, choose one, and do nothing. I do not like that and find it does not work in my "vision" of what Citadels should be as a game.
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King of the Dead
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Bathtub Hoax wrote:
ackmond, I'm not speaking of the time it takes to choose between the two cards (although that does compound it), I'm speaking about the fact that one is drawing half as many cards as one is gold. So the pacing of the game drags down -- you have to take a fair amount of turns where you just draw, choose one, and do nothing. I do not like that and find it does not work in my "vision" of what Citadels should be as a game.


Yeah, I just don't see it. I'll side with others that say this is a deliberate slow down, intrinsic to how the game was meant to be played.

I guess the thing to say would be just play as you want. If playing house rules were illegal we'd all be singing jail house rock together.
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Jon Fairhead
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We take another view of the "draw 2 discard 1 rule".

We play it as "draw two cards and discard another card", meaning that you draw two cards, add them to your hand, then discard a card from your hand. This allows you to rid yourself of redundant cards.

Drawing two cards also affects the game speed by giving you two chances of drawing something useful whilst discarding something which is potentially useful to someone else.
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Joe Niezelski
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I almost never use the "Draw 2, discard 1" action. If I need cards, I'll usually just go for the architect or magician.
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Seth
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Lawnjob wrote:
...And since you can only build one building of each type...


Is this played like it supposed to? I have not read anything about it being played that way... In our games more than one of the same type of building is ok. But I do believe the translation was horrible, so it could be they missed that too.
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Seth_Logan wrote:
Lawnjob wrote:
...And since you can only build one building of each type...


Is this played like it supposed to? I have not read anything about it being played that way... In our games more than one of the same type of building is ok. But I do believe the translation was horrible, so it could be they missed that too.
From my observations playing online and scouring the web.... German rules say this was OK. French rules, no. English/US rules, NOT ok either. Only exception is the Quarry, a purple exp building that lets you build up to 1 duplicate of each disctrict.

Later on, the designer mentioned in somewhere on his site forum that one could go ahead and ignore that restriction. So the answer is, depends on your location and copy of the game. Otherwise, make it clear what the rules are.
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DuckAndCower wrote:
I almost never use the "Draw 2, discard 1" action. If I need cards, I'll usually just go for the architect or magician.
If others aren't assassinating, robbing, or bewitching those roles, then they're missing excellent opportunities.
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Patrick Runyan
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ackmondual wrote:
Seth_Logan wrote:
Lawnjob wrote:
...And since you can only build one building of each type...


Is this played like it supposed to? I have not read anything about it being played that way... In our games more than one of the same type of building is ok. But I do believe the translation was horrible, so it could be they missed that too.
From my observations playing online and scouring the web.... German rules say this was OK. French rules, no. English/US rules, NOT ok either. Only exception is the Quarry, a purple exp building that lets you build up to 1 duplicate of each disctrict.

Later on, the designer mentioned in somewhere on his site forum that one could go ahead and ignore that restriction. So the answer is, depends on your location and copy of the game. Otherwise, make it clear what the rules are.


That's good to know. I never had a problem with it but my friends B&Med about not being able to build duplicates...
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Greg Jones
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Lawnjob wrote:
By the way, I consider the Architect completely broken and *NEVER* play with him. Not only is drawing 2 cards overpowered within the original ruleset, but being able to build three districts is degenerate. This is a game about seizing opportunity, and with the Architect in the deck the game becomes one-dimensional: you either pick the Architect or stop the player picking the architect.


It's powerful, sure, but not broken.

Usually, the three-build ability doesn't come into play. You would need either a lot of gold or a lot of cheap buildings to be able to build three. If people are building up a lot of gold, your group isn't using the Thief well. I rarely see anyone build more than two. Two is common enough, but taking the Architect and still only building one is not uncommon.

The extra two cards are powerful, but situational. If you already have a lot of cards, and take two more, and can only build one or none at all, now you have a whole lot of cards. If you don't see that as a problem, your group isn't using the Magician well. Since it's situational, you can have a good guess who and when will be taking the Architect. That makes it possible to target them with the Assassin or Thief. I usually target the Architect when

1) someone has few or no cards in their hand
2) someone has a lot of gold
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