Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
26 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Religion + Mankind = Hate + Ignorance = no morals rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
robert cabrera
United States
Chesterfield
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I was told once that without religion, our societies would have no "moral" outline as to live by. This doesnt make any sense to me when it is obvious through out history and even now, how religion and hate have always been tied together.

Churches tell you if you are gay...going to hell.
Women throughout the bible are viewed as less than a man or they are a witch and should burned at a stake.
Muslims use their religion as a reason to blow up innocent people.
The vatican had ties to Nazi germany and its attempted genocide of the Jews.
The Jews helped kill Jesus (i guess)
The KKK used crosses as a symbol and always referred to God.
Countries today hate each other just because of their religious differences.
The Spanish Inquisition.
Lutherans being burned at the stake for blasphemy.
Christians and Lions.
Medieval Crusades.
Massacre of St. Bartholomew
30 years war
etc.

Plus look what people will do with their belief...
Waco
suicide bombers
Jonestown
Manson followers
Nazi troops

Now I am not saying religion is a bad thing...but in the hands of people, it can be a horrible thing...and morals and being religious dont seem to go hand in hand. As an Agnostic, I believe that God could exist...but if he does, I doubt he hates Gays, Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Atheist or whatever else you want to put here.

Organized religion is a business, a fight for peoples mindset and wallets. I think my children can learn morals without brainwashing hate.

"Imagine there's no Heaven" John Lennon

Oh and just out of curiousity...why is it said that god sacrificed his only son? Isnt all mankind his son's? Could he not make another Jesus? Can god sacrafice something when he can do anything?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
badfish20 wrote:
I was told once that without religion, our societies would have no "moral" outline as to live by.


This is wrong. Find who told you and slap them.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Sarsoza
United States
Loma Linda
California
flag msg tools
It is actually 102, but I do not count my trick-taking games.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say. If your are simply trying to disprove the statement that without religion morals do not exist a stronger argument would be to explain why morals exist without a religious basis.

The examples you provide are rather inflammatory and it feels like you are just trying to get a rise out of those who are religious. Religious belief may have been a factor in all those cases, but religious belief is not the sole cause. For example, Nazi Germany used ideas like evolution to justify killing Jews, the mentally ill, and the physically deformed. They wanted to purify their race in order to evolve. It would be erroneous to say that evolution causes genocide.

I would argue that religion is not to blame, rather it is man alone that is to blame for these atrocities. US government building as well as the socialist movements in China and Russia would not be described as religiously motivated and yet I would bet that both sides can attest to atrocities that have taken place.

The fact that man does these horrible things is an argument that we do not have morals without some form of religious belief, we just need to understand that belief a little better.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Leo Zappa
United States
Aliquippa
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My religion tells me that God loves all of us, that we are all His children, and that we are supposed to love one another as He loves us. So, I can't relate to all of these horrible things you are pinning on religion, other than to say it's not my experience, but as people are imperfect, I know that some of them have twisted God's word for their own evil purposes. Of course, evil people don't need to wrap themselves up in religion to do evil. People like Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot did not need a religious cloak to accomplish monsterous deeds. Don't blame religion for the world's ills. Rather, blame the people who misunderstand, misuse, and warp the message of religion to further their already evil intentions.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
True Blue Jon
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What is religion?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith "Boaty McBoatface" C
United States
New Haven
Connecticut
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you're confusing correlation with causality. These are examples of hateful people using religion as an excuse. There are plenty of good things that religious people do. Most of the soup kitchens and homeless shelters in my area are supported by local churches and church groups. The presbyterian church down the street is part of a program encouraging churches and others to support local GLBT communities. So people will use the existing social constructs to further their personal agendas, be these viewed as good or bad. Religion is no different.
10 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Wow, do you have a negative view of religion.

Religion is like anything else created/followed by man. It can be positive or negative depending on application. Religion has inspired great caring, charity, unity, and compassion while defining social structures. Similarly, it has been used as a tool to segregate, discriminate, justify war, and condemn. Don't blame the idea, blame the people that do it.

Religious faith can be a fantastic, uplifting experience. Rather than calling religion on the carpet for the bad that's happened, we should be promoting the good that it can do.

Democracy, for example, is no different. Remember that Germany was a Democracy in 1932 and look what came from that.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Takagi
United States
San Marcos
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Religion + Mankind = Hate + Ignorance = no morals


Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself. Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words---'mank' and 'ind'. What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nothing but static
New Zealand
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
jtakagi wrote:
Quote:
Religion + Mankind = Hate + Ignorance = no morals


Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself. Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words---'mank' and 'ind'. What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.


Chewbacca is a wookie.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
AKA Halston Thrombeaux
United States
Lincoln
NE
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155419
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
badfish20 wrote:

The Jews helped kill Jesus (i guess)
...
Countries today hate each other just because of their religious differences.
etc.
...
Nazi troops

1. The same people who claim we killed Yoshka or helped do so also claim the blood libel and various other things.

2. "Countries today hate each other just because of their religious differences." Too vague to be meaningful-- let alone confirmed or refuted. People hate. Countries can't.

3. Naziism was NOT either a religious expression nor about religion. Christianized and atheist Jews were also murdered-- as were Gypsies, homosexuals, thementally retarded, etc.

Moreover, if it's about "who's killed more", Stalin, Mao and co killed enough people in the name of an atheistic ideology to pretty much even the score-- if not tip it to the atheists' side. Are these typical or representative of most atheists in anyway? Not by a long shot.

Forgive me for being blunt, but generally those who dismiss "religion" monolithically as "bad"/"evil"/etc do so because they are too mentally lazy to really examine what to believe and why. This is not at all the same as examining the issues and deciding not to believe G-d, a god or gods exist. It's an exercise in bigotry motivated by mental laziness because choosing prejudiced conlusions that seem convenient are much simpler for some than having the intestinal fortitude to confront the issues realistically and come to a conclusion.

Believe or do not believe as you will, but do yourself a favor and put some mental effort into the decision.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
A L D A R O N
United States
Cambridge
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
A L D A R O N
badge
----[---->+<]>++.+++++++++++.--------.---.>-[--->+<]>---.---.-.
Avatar
mb
quozl wrote:
What is religion?

This whole tread is pretty much a non-starter until someone answers quozl's question. Until then the answer to the OP's is "yes, obviously", "certainly not", and everything in between.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Brown
United States
Colorado Springs
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So what you are saying is if everybody thought like you than we would have peace.

You're sounding a little "religious" yourself.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Big Woo
Scotland
state:
running out of space...
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
Drew1365 wrote:
Quote:
Religion + Mankind = Hate + Ignorance = no morals


No sense of history in this one.
Imagine if there were no religious orders, no monks toiling away, preserving all the knowledge they could after the fall of the Roman Empire and Europe descended into the dark ages?


Uhm Drew, Europe did plunge into what we call the Dark Ages.

The preserved knowledge you talk about wasn't so much kept intact by monks, initially, but survived largely as treasures in the libraries of Constantinople and (later) Islamic powerhouses like Cordoba, in the era when the inquisitive and tolerant branch of Islam made contributions to our civilization that are frequently ignored more than they ought to.

Without Cordoba, we wouldn't have had the universities we now treasure so much. Sure, after the Moors got kicked out of Spain, it then became the Catholic Church which was instrumental in preserving, studying, translating, and copying the text. With one big difference. Where Islam at that time was keen to educate the (male) population, the Christian church was more interested in keeping access to that knowledge under lock and key, as it was keen to control what happened with it.

Only once Religion lost its stranglehold over the houses of learning did we start to make the really large leaps in insight that we now take for granted. That doesn't mean that morality has no role in what is and what isn't right in scientific research, but I wouldn't say that simply because the monks had a hand in preserving knowledge at some point along the time-line (which certainly doesn't go from Roman to Christian in one easy step), it automatically means that it was "thanks to them" it was passed on. It is equally arguable that when the Christian church got really involved, the natural flow of progress was actually slowed down a bit, not cherished and promoted.


Please note I don't think it is fruitful to talk about Morality and (A-)Religion in the simplistic and absolute terms that the OP put forwards. Excesses never define the core, and certainly not in absolutes. I do think that some people aren't "quite as loving" as they proclaim, but that doesn't make them a-moral, or bad, or any different from me.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
robert cabrera
United States
Chesterfield
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Im not saying religion is a bad thing, Im saying religion in the hands of mankind is a bad thing. Im tired of the religious worrying about my morale welfare because I dont eat a piece of bread with wine on Sundays. When countless atrocoties and moral hypocrosy have been carried out by these so called spirtual people through out history.

Dont tell me god loves everyone and then tell me gays are going to hell. It doesnt make sense. Dont tell me not to hold on to earthly possessions and wealth when the Vatican and mormons are super rich.

Ofcourse this probably wasnt the original intent of religions, but Religion + Mankind = corruption...I guess hate and ignorance were already there. But dont tell me I need religion to have morals, it seems like religion steals your morals with telling you whats right and wrong.

This isnt an attack on good people who just want something to believe in and enjoy their faith.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So, you're not a Christian. Congratulations. Neither are many of the world's religious people.

badfish20 wrote:

This isnt an attack on good people who just want something to believe in and enjoy their faith.


This is a simplistic and condescending dismissal of religion as implicitly for the "weak-minded" who need "something to believe". As I posted above, I would encourage you to examine what you believe and why. Face the hard questions and avoid the easy answers-- unless you come to those easy answers by the hard-toiled route of genuine thought and self-examination.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Big Woo
Scotland
state:
running out of space...
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
GAWD wrote:
Woo ... can you provide references for your narrative?

Hi GAWD, been a while ;-)

Yes, the Golden age of Islam is a fascinating era if you are interested in how we got to where we are now.

If you want to dabble a bit, Wiki has some decent rough-overview pages, which are pretty good starting points, taking with the usual wiki-caveat.

Early Middle Ages
Al-Andalus
History of European Research Universities
Library of Constantinople

late edit: islamic contributions to Medieval Europe


edited from wiki wrote:
A number of important educational and scientific institutions have their origins in the medieval Islamic world, with the most notable examples being: the public hospital, the psychiatric hospital, the public library and lending library, the academic degree-granting university, and the astronomical observatory as a research institute.

The first universities which issued diplomas were the Bimaristan medical university-hospitals, where medical diplomas were issued to students of Islamic medicine from the 9th century. The origins of the doctorate also dates back to the ijazat attadris wa 'l-ifttd ("license to teach and issue legal opinions") in the medieval Madrasahs.


Note the Public aspect of Public library etc.



And you gotta love this city: Cordoba.




Worth a read

That we have to rediscover it anno 2008 shows you how much our world-view has been reshaped by the people that told it to us, not by what it actually looked like. Cordoba was MASSIVE, but hardly anyone in Europe knows about it now, and most would not be able to put in on a map, probably not even in the right country come to think of it. Which is remarkable, if you realize how much we know about Rome and Greece. But we liked them, Islam..... not so. So the West-world narrative of knowledge and modern civilization goes from Greece to Rome to Christianity, that rescues it from the Dark Ages. Which is a monstrous distortion of reality.


To put it in context:

Quote:
By the 10th century, Cordoba had 700 mosques, 60,000 palaces, and 70 libraries, the largest of which had 600,000 books. In the whole al-Andalus, 60,000 treatises, poems, polemics and compilations were published each year. The library of Cairo had two million books, while the library of Tripoli (you say Istanbul, I say Constantinople) is said to have had as many as three million books before it was destroyed by Crusaders. The number of important and original medieval Arabic works on the mathematical sciences far exceeds the combined total of medieval Latin and Greek works of comparable significance, although only a small fraction of the surviving Arabic scientific works have been studied in modern times.

A number of distinct features of the modern library were introduced in the Islamic world, where libraries not only served as a collection of manuscripts as was the case in ancient libraries, but also as a public library and lending library, a centre for the instruction and spread of sciences and ideas, a place for meetings and discussions, and sometimes as a lodging for scholars or boarding school for pupils. The concept of the library catalogue was also introduced in medieval Islamic libraries, where books were organized into specific genres and categories.


That's the knowledge bit. Scholars from all faiths and backgrounds travelled to Spain to educate themselves, during the -ah- Dark Ages (guess who coined the term that this was the "Unenlightened Time" in the modern world). Not around the North coast of Africa, and part of Spain.

All religions were living literally in close quarters to each-other in Cordoba. For the time, it was an incredibly tolerant era, and we lost a lot after that. The irony is that when the Christians tried to kick them out of Spain (and succeeded, the rather civilized face of Islam had to get troops from the more radical "barbaric" tribes to defend it, and it could be argued that Enlightened Islam got a knock there that we still deal with. (NOT saying it is "our fault", for that comes up). Just history, it's really interesting, and more complex than I will ever be able to grasp, or can do justice to, with just a few broad-outline scribbles here.


And we adopted far more, rather than invented "things" out of thin air as it is often portrayed:

Quote:
Several fundamental common law institutions may have been adapted from similar legal institutions in Islamic law and jurisprudence, and introduced to England by the Normans after the Norman conquest of England and the Emirate of Sicily, and by Crusaders during the Crusades. In particular, the "royal English contract protected by the action of debt is identified with the Islamic Aqd, the English assize of novel disseisin is identified with the Islamic Istihqaq, and the English jury is identified with the Islamic Lafif." Other legal institutions introduced in Islamic law include the trust and charitable trust and the lawsuit and medical peer review. Other English legal institutions such as "the scholastic method, the license to teach," the "law schools known as Inns of Court in England and Madrasas in Islam" and the "European commenda" may have also originated from Islamic law. These influences have led some scholars to suggest that Islamic law may have laid the foundations for "the common law as an integrated whole".


If this is new to you, get reading. I am not saying Islam is good, bad. Christianity wrong, good, misguided, whatever. As a historical era, and part of the puzzle to civilization it is a phenomenally interesting era, and it might actually teach us something about our common history, and the benefits of learning and listening from each other, rather than demonising those on the other side of the fence, or pretending that "we" invented it all.


Off course, Islam also didn't live on an island, and one day "we in the West" will discover that even Ancient Greece wasn't born in isolation, but was part of a far more interactive world in which ideas come from far away places, through missionaries from the East, miles ahead compared to, what we still call "the cradle of modern civilization".

Modern Western Civilization is a misnomer (but our Enlightenment has given us a recent edge). We share far more than we realize.
7 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Allen
United States
Grand Prairie
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some Agnostics are really mean.

So Agnostics have no morals.

Now I am not saying being an Agnostic is a bad thing.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Allen
United States
Grand Prairie
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And whac3...

thumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsupthumbsup

You da man!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge Montero
United States
St Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag. With Latin written on it that says "It's hard to give a shit these days"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The era Spanish Reconquista is something even most Spaniards don't really understand. One only has to look at how long the whole thing took: The Battle of Covadonga happened in 722, and the fall of Granada didn't happen until 1492! Even today, as someone tours Spain from Oviedo towards Granada, one can see how, the oldest parts of the cities get more and more Arab as one goes along. The center of Cordoba, Seville and Granada show how they had a completely dfferent culture from Oviedo and Santiago
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Big Woo
Scotland
state:
running out of space...
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
hibikir wrote:
The era Spanish Reconquista is something even most Spaniards don't really understand. One only has to look at how long the whole thing took: The Battle of Covadonga happened in 722, and the fall of Granada didn't happen until 1492! Even today, as someone tours Spain from Oviedo towards Granada, one can see how, the oldest parts of the cities get more and more Arab as one goes along. The center of Cordoba, Seville and Granada show how they had a completely dfferent culture from Oviedo and Santiago


Indeed Jonge, it has only been recently that there has been a genuine drive to re-appreciate that era, probably accelerated by the way Islam became such a focus here. If a country is capable of more or less erasing "living memory" of a substantial part of its own cultural heritage, it does kinda remind you how sceptical we need to be before accepting even the recent history stories as true as presented.

A good decade back, when the internet started to emerge, I started to look into medieval illustrations of games, but it wasn't long until I realizeed this curiosity for early game pictures was rapidly becoming the most improbable bridge towards a re-evaluation of everything they had taught me at school about fairly recent European history.

Via research into Alfonso X Book of Games I not only found what I was looking for, I discovered so much more about my own Dutch culture, the role of religion, science, etc. In the unlikeliest of places: Islam. After what they taught me at school, I did not see that coming. And this raised awareness has most certainly enriched my life, and my world more colourful. Fascination doesn't start to cover it.

If the (Christian/Humanist) West and (Islamic) East ever have a chance to come to some sort of accommodation and appreciation, somewhere in Old Cordoba lies the key. I think we both have some catching up and updating to do.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T.W. McLain 3
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Cut the guy a little slack- he must be about 15 to postulate an argument like this. A few years after Emo and little brush with mortality every now and again and he will probably come to his senses..
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.