Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
25 Posts

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Catholic Priest tells Obama voters to repent rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Stephen Dunne
United States
Austin
TX
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was pretty shocked at this story from CNN. (Tried to pull the URL from the CNN site, but they don't show it)

He wants he parishioners that voted for Obama to repent, since he is pro-choice and the church is not. I have a real problem with this. I was raised Catholic, spent a good part of my life in church every sunday. I walked away from the church in my twenties when I couldn't reconcile my personal beliefs with those the church told me I should have.

And now a priest is telling those that voted for a candidate that does not follow the church doctrine should repent before taking communion?

Should a church force it's political agenda on the parishioners? It bothers me that a church is going to tell you how to live your life, and now they feel that they can tell you how you should vote.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This type of story shows up every election cycle. The US council of bishops at one point considered requiring priests to deny communion to politicians that publicly supported pro-choice policies, if memory serves correctly. John Kerry's name came up fairly specifically in a number of those types of stories.

A church can do whatever it wants regarding its belief within it's four walls, and that's fine. I might not like the action, but if that's their doctrine, that's their doctrine.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
King of All Simians — Not a Mere Diplomat
United States
Wilmington
Select State
flag msg tools
designer
I love you.
badge
I love you.
Avatar
mb
I agree with Ken. It's their party, so they can run it as they please. If you're a Catholic Obama supporter, you'll either work to fix the church as you'd like to see it, or you'll leave the fold. Either outcome is acceptable to me.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
badge
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Holmes! wrote:
I agree with Ken. It's their party, so they can run it as they please. If you're a Catholic Obama supporter, you'll either work to fix the church as you'd like to see it, or you'll leave the fold. Either outcome is acceptable to me.


Or you will do ignore him outright as being wrong or do your penance for sinning like Catholics who use birth control do.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
VETRHUS of Rogaland
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
badge
An ash I know, Yggdrasil its name. With water white is the great tree wet; thence come the dews that fall in the dales. Green by Urth's well does it ever grow.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This is a tough question.

If the Catholic church posits that communion is necessary for salvation, which is a simplistic explanation of their historical position, then to deny communion is to deny salvation to individuals.

Since this is a political choice, and cannot be distilled to simply pro-choice v. pro-life, this is essentially denying salvation to individuals who do not vote the way which some part of the larger church finds objectionable.

I can see the denial of communion to those who are overtly committing the sins as defined by the Catholic church. That's a consistent position, and can be understood.

But this is a schizmatic issue, since Obama represents social justice issues, the hope of racial reconciliation, worker's rights, and many other issues which the Catholic church has been a leader in championing in the USA, and around the globe.

This is not the position of ALL Catholics, however. It is clear that there is a spectrum of belief within Catholicism, like there is among and between the rest of the christian church.

But this sort of thing was seen in Europe prior the our nation's birth, and perpetuated as political leverage via the denial of the eucharist within both the Catholic and Anglican traditions. Some of our first settlers left the church for our country to escape such things, and Martin Luther's protestations were about this sort of thing.

So I contend that we might look toward separation of church and state from the opposite side of that equation, and consider whether it is ever justifiable to bring politics into the church in this way.

That said, it isn't more objectionable than the evangelical churches who told people who to vote for from the Sunday pulpits, in defiance of non-profit classifications.

So maybe we ought to consider pulling the non-profit status from all churches of all types, if this is going to be part of our current socio-religious millieu. That would cost the recipients of the good works of the church dearly... and would be a mortal sin, in my opinion.

Then, God himself may deny our membership in the communion at all.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morgan Dontanville
United States
Charlottesville
VA
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Plate of Shrimp.
badge
Here we are folks, the dream we all dream of.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:

A church can do whatever it wants regarding its belief within it's four walls, and that's fine. I might not like the action, but if that's their doctrine, that's their doctrine.


I totally agree, but as soon as they become political, they should pay taxes.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorge Montero
United States
St Louis
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
I'll take Manhattan in a garbage bag. With Latin written on it that says "It's hard to give a shit these days"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Vatican is also heavily against the death penalty. Both McCain and Obama seem to have no problem with it, so I guess all Catholics that voted for a major party should repent!
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Randy Cox
United States
Clemson
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
1024x768 works just fine - Don't Wide the Site!
badge
Missing old BGG
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sisteray wrote:
perfalbion wrote:

A church can do whatever it wants regarding its belief within it's four walls, and that's fine. I might not like the action, but if that's their doctrine, that's their doctrine.


I totally agree, but as soon as they become political, they should pay taxes.
Which, I believe, is why the priest has backpeddled quite a bit. The bishop came down hard on him and he squirmed around and posted an apology.

My guess is that the postings to the newspaper article instructing people about how to contact the IRS to report this blending of political activism and tax exempt status is what started the retreat.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sisteray wrote:
I totally agree, but as soon as they become political, they should pay taxes.


While I agree with the general sentiment, this doesn't strike me as being political. Petulant, perhaps. But not political.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JessA
United States
Southwestern
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
That's MRS. McFoxFace to you!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I want to share an interesting article written by Richard Rohr who is a Franciscan Priest:

Here's the link to an easier to read version, but I also copied and pasted it below: http://cacradicalgrace.org/getconnected/Single%20Issue%20Pol...

HOW DID THE WORLD CHANGING MESSAGE OF JESUS GET WATERED DOWN INTO ONE ISSUE? By Richard Rohr, OFM
Whether it is ending the war at all costs on the Left or overturning Roe versus Wade as the goal on the Right, one wonders what is at work with this one issue preoccupation that characterizes so many Americans today.

It has certainly revealed the uninformed and immature level of much Christian thinking, and has kept us all from facing the full implications of the Gospel, any consistent ethic of life, or any consistent anything. We cannot weave the “seamless garment” of life and justice with just one thread. But then I have found that many Christians are not interested in weaving but only opposing.

I myself oppose abortion, but it was never the test case for orthodox belief or morality till very recently, and largely in the USA. We settled the fundamentals early on with the Nicene Creed and the Apostle’s Creed. Those were the agreed upon test questions. They were the bottom line for the first 2000 years. When did that change?

I have been struck in recent Bible study by Jesus’ common warning to “avoid” or “beware of the yeast” of the Pharisees and the Herodians. (see Matthew 16:6-12, Mark 8:15, Luke 12:1). It is a telling and psychologically brilliant metaphor. The religiously observant Pharisees would have said words and used symbols that would have pleased the religious conservatives in protecting the status quo. The
Herodians would have said words and used symbols that would have pleased the progressive secularists who wanted to accommodate to the Roman occupation. Both had the right words but bad yeast.

Symbols and words are external signs, and most people are not trained to see beyond them. Both words and symbols are highly subject to misuse and misinterpretation, and are commonly used to manipulate undiscerning people. Yeast, as Jesus says, “is hidden inside the dough” (Luke 13:31). It is the yeast that reveals what is really going on, and what will actually rise from the dough. We need to discern whether the symbols and words are authentic or just used to wage a symbolic culture war. (EG: George W. Bush approved the deaths of more people in
the Texas prison system than any known governor, almost single handedly drove us into “an unnecessary and immoral war” (words of John Paul II), and yet there would be many Catholic Americans who would rather amazingly call him a pro life president.) This is a tragic contemporary example of our inability to see the “yeast” hidden inside the dough, and to be manipulated by cultural symbols and words.

As you rightly suspect, my concern here is the Catholic and often Evangelical use of overturning Roe versus Wade as their full and final litmus test for any candidate for public office. Even many of our Catholic bishops and priests seem to have never been trained in the charism of spiritual discernment. They are not using elections as the teachable moment that they could so fruitfully be. In their obsession with one “overriding” issue, they themselves override the Gospel and the
long standing Tradition.

Any preoccupation with a single litmus test for voting on Left or Right fails to
recognize:
1) The from “womb to tomb” and “common good” principles of the Church
and the Gospels.
2) Spiritual issues cannot be resolved primarily by legal systems, nor did Jesus
once recommend that approach.
3) The state and the courts cannot be a substitute for our own necessary work,
imagination, and sacrifices.
4) The actual “yeast” underlying candidates public words is often at odds with
their public positions. (E.G. “Pro-life” candidates are often pro life only
until birth, while their yeast is very often the exact opposite after birth. “Pro
choice” candidates have sometimes created a world in which abortion was
actually less needed or attractive. Abortion rates went down under Clinton
and up under Bush, for example). Things are not always what they seem.
5) Many recent elected officials have done nothing to actually support the
relevant issue once in office. It appears to be more a symbolic issue in the
culture wars than any real moral concern over which they would risk any
political capital once they are elected.
6) One has a right to mistrust a person’s spiritual discernment and maturity when the issue about which they are so committed asks nothing of them personally and asks a lot of others. See Luke 11:46. (E.G. I am told, and I have seen, that there is a disproportionate amount of males, celibates, and post menopausal women, who make anti-abortion their single moral issue).

Since our first operative principle here at the CAC, is that “The teaching of
Jesus in our primary reference point”, I offer this reflection in an attempt to be
faithful to what Jesus actually taught and what he never taught at all. It is to him
alone that we have given authority over our lives, and it is to him that we have
given our lives. No other political ideology, Left or Right, deserves that authority,
even when the Church itself reflects those ideologies instead of discerning the real
nature of the “yeast hidden inside the dough.”
Spiritual discernment is the wisdom way of knowing, and should be the expert
gift of the church to the world. Before we teach people what to hear, we first need
to teach people how to hear. Let’s use elections to form mature Christian
consciences, instead of just reflecting the culture wars.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pat Roberts
United States
Peculiar
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This kinda sums up why I could not be Catholic. Some dude gets to decide if I go the heaven or hell? Just does not mesh with how I think God works. Can't see him sub contracting out tasks required for salvation. Who knows?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Morgan Dontanville
United States
Charlottesville
VA
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Plate of Shrimp.
badge
Here we are folks, the dream we all dream of.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
perfalbion wrote:
sisteray wrote:
I totally agree, but as soon as they become political, they should pay taxes.


While I agree with the general sentiment, this doesn't strike me as being political. Petulant, perhaps. But not political.


I see it as being both petulant and political. He, as the mouthpiece of God, is refusing consent to granting members of the Catholic church the body and blood of Christ based on how they voted. In order to faithfully receive the sacrament you are forced to repent for a sin that this dude is making up in the name of God. A fabricated sin that is solely based on his political beliefs. It doesn't get any more political than that.

I think it is within their right for a church to say however they feel, but in this case there are some real issues.

First, it is a Catholic church. What he is espousing is not doctrine, he shouldn't be ad libing. There is a chain of command to follow and this guy isn't doing his job.

Second, when you are not taxed based on the grace of separation of church and state you need to respect that. The guy can go on chat rooms and talk about it all he'd like after hours.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M@tthijs
Netherlands
Venlo
flag msg tools
November 11, 1918 - end of WW-I
badge
Lest we forget
Avatar
mb
lizardbaby wrote:
This kinda sums up why I could not be Catholic. Some dude gets to decide if I go the heaven or hell? Just does not mesh with how I think God works. Can't see him sub contracting out tasks required for salvation. Who knows?


I think it's spelled Dude.

And yeah, same reason why I don't believe.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Johnson
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
Catholic Priest tells Obama voters to repent


Atheist gamer tells Catholic Priest to shove it.

5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
badge
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GAWD,

You are a wonderful source of information and ideas. When I agree with you and when I don't.

Thanks for taking the time to be so.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M@tthijs
Netherlands
Venlo
flag msg tools
November 11, 1918 - end of WW-I
badge
Lest we forget
Avatar
mb
GAWD wrote:
lots of things to catch up on ... might as well start here ...

I'm not here to debate abortion but simply to explain the thinking that informed this occasion.

The priest in this situation, though perhaps lacking in tact, is (mostly) doctrinally correct. Here's why:

[snip enormous post]

A lot longer than I expected ... oh well, sorry.

Short version:

If the priest thinks Obama isn't the right choice, he should vote for the other guy when he's contemplating his ballot. Alone. In his booth.
But he shouldn't mindf*k his herd.

Repent. Going to hell. Ha! Let's see who does. My God is a lot more vengeful towards disciples misusing their given authority, then about removing a dozen cells which might become life, after a month or 3.

Any religious leader, high or low, should refrain from making political statements. It always stinks, no matter if it's a (proverbial, may I add) misguided Catholic priest in front of an empty church, or the highest muslim scripture saint.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sisteray wrote:
I see it as being both petulant and political. He, as the mouthpiece of God, is refusing consent to granting members of the Catholic church the body and blood of Christ based on how they voted. In order to faithfully receive the sacrament you are forced to repent for a sin that this dude is making up in the name of God. A fabricated sin that is solely based on his political beliefs. It doesn't get any more political than that.


The Catholic church teaches that abortion is murder. Those voting for pro-choice candidates can therefore be seen as voting for people who support a form of murder. You and I may find that out of step with our thinking, but if that's your religious belief, then that probably qualifies as a sin.

I won't cast stones at them, although I disagree with them.

Quote:
I think it is within their right for a church to say however they feel, but in this case there are some real issues.

First, it is a Catholic church. What he is espousing is not doctrine, he shouldn't be ad libing. There is a chain of command to follow and this guy isn't doing his job.


Except that this is an extension of doctrine. If abortion is a sin, one votes to support that sin, and one does not repent their sins, one is unfit to receive communion. Note that in the US, this may seem odd, but the Catholic church in the US is far more liberal than the Catholic church in the rest of the world. There's a reason you never hear an American name when they're discussing candidates for the papacy.

Quote:
Second, when you are not taxed based on the grace of separation of church and state you need to respect that. The guy can go on chat rooms and talk about it all he'd like after hours.


Did he promote any particular candidate, ballot initiative, etc.? If not, then it's not "political speech" as we define it under law. I understand you disagree with that, but on some issues you can't avoid the distinction. If a church is against abortion, gay marriage, and capital punishment, are they supposed to never discuss them in the context of how their faith impacts (and is impacted by) the world they live in? I can turn just about anything into a political issue with a bit of thought, so the churches wouldn't have very much to say about anything.
4 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
nothing but static
New Zealand
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
far less political than

Robert F. Drinan

get over it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John So-And-So
United States
Fresno
California
flag msg tools
badge
You and the Cap'n make it hap'n
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm sorry, Jesus.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
For BJ.....
Avatar
mb
Because you know..when Jesus comes back......He'll have an UZI.

Darilian
Bill!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M@tthijs
Netherlands
Venlo
flag msg tools
November 11, 1918 - end of WW-I
badge
Lest we forget
Avatar
mb
GAWD wrote:
Right, only the nonreligious "leaders" should be allowed to be political, have political opinions, and be allowed to speak freely.

Good!

You see, it isn't that difficult thumbsup


Obama/ Bush etc. should not make religious statements,
Holy leaders should not make political statements.
All can execute their freedom of speech all they want. When they're not 'on record'. "This is my personal opinion, not representative for my group".
If they [religious/ political leaders in general] can't differ between the two, they should get a job working with their hands in stead of with their mouths.
arrrh

...But that's my opinion.

Tot Darilian: AAAaaaa! Could you stop switching avatars!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Johnson
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
_Kael_ wrote:
If they [religious/ political leaders in general] can't differ between the two, they should get a job working with their hands in stead of with their mouths.
Hey, not so loud. You know a lot of Catholic priests get into serious trouble when they start working with their hands.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.