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Subject: math trade idea: sum of net wants rss

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Michael Leuchtenburg
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We've had quite a few trades which require the "net wants" of a game to have a certain value to make a game eligible for entry. Net wants is defined as the number wanting minus the the number trading and is intended to function as a metric for how desired a game currently is in the trading community.

The required values we've had have ranged from:
* w > 0
* w > x, where x is some other positive value.
* w > x * N, where N is the number of copies offered in the current trade

Another idea we've seen used repeatedly is "for every piece of crap you offer, you also have to offer some amount of good stuff". This was seen in the recent MinCrapMaxAccountability trade as needing to offer 5 tier 1 and 2 items for each tier 3 item.

So how about this. Require the *sum* of all of your net wants to be positive. That means that you can offer games which not many people want, but in order to do so, you'll need to offer some other more desired items. Want to offer a copy of Monopoly? Well, it has a net wants of -87, so you'll need to offer something good to do so. Heck, offer Dominion, with net wants of 359, and you can offer three copies of Monopoly!

Another possibility would be to require it to not just be positive, but to be at least some value, or to have an average value over some value. So you could offer crap, but you need to keep the average net wants per item over 20.

I'm not sure how sweeteners would best be handled. Just add them in, probably, or (kinder) count them only if positive in value.

I think this would nicely result in having high quality items, while also allowing some additional grease in the mix. The downside is that it could be a bit unwieldy, as it requires first calculating the net wants for each item you may want to offer, and then making sure that you're offering things with sufficiently high net wants.

This could be helped a lot by good tools. Just a site which fetches your "for trade" items and calculates net wants would be very useful.

Thoughts?
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Chris Okasaki
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Seems like as good a restriction as any, except for being unwieldy.
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Jeff Michaud
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the problem with any math trade that requires you to offer other items so you can offer the items you really want to offer suffers from the problem that it's extremely easy for folks to offer stuff they don't even own, submit a blank list for that stuff (or make the want lists decent size trade ups so if they do trade you just go and buy it online and have it shipped directly to the recipient) in order to offer what someone may call "crap" (beauty is in the eye of the beholder)
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Occu Pant
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dyfrgi wrote:
...
This could be helped a lot by good tools. Just a site which fetches your "for trade" items and calculates net wants would be very useful.
Thoughts?

I would jump in.

This MT would be worth it alone if it facilitated the creation of a tool that produced an exportable list that includes #wants and #trades (or even just NetDemand) even if resulted in zero trades for me.

 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
the problem with any math trade that requires you to offer other items so you can offer the items you really want to offer suffers from the problem that it's extremely easy for folks to offer stuff they don't even own, submit a blank list for that stuff (or make the want lists decent size trade ups so if they do trade you just go and buy it online and have it shipped directly to the recipient) in order to offer what someone may call "crap" (beauty is in the eye of the beholder)


True.

A variation on the theme then could be that all main items had to have a positive NetDemand (+1) and the average of all your main items had to be +20. And you could put any sweeteners on your main items that you want (NetDemand=anything).
Could still be abused, but less so since all your main items have to have ND of at least +1 and all the true crap would have to be added as sweeteners to a main item (so you could not totally game the system).
 
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Occu Pant
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How would you handle Miscellaneous Game Accessory and Outside the Scope of BGG ??
 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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I'd probably treat Miscellaneous Game Accessory and Outside the Scope of BGG as ND=0, or possibly as low as ND=-20.
 
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David Chu
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Niffty idea,
But isn't there enough work in a mathtrade (for everyone) without the added job of doing a 'card counting trick' when posting items...

Personally, I believe in the 'K.I.S.S.' philosophy.

But you know what they say, ‘if you run a math trade, they will come…’laugh
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Ryan Gatti
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Here's a much easier way to ensure high quality items:

1) Allow people to put whatever they want into the trade for their first 3 items (or 5, 8, 10, whatever . . . some arbitrary limitation to get items/people into the trade)

2) All other items must be wanted/wished for by at least 1 other person in the math trade (this can easily be seen in the OLWLG's Statistics page)


In this way, the math trade is open to everyone, but most of the items are likely to be higher quality since someone listed them as a want (and may likely do so when submitting a want list).
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Occu Pant
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rgatti wrote:
Here's a much easier way to ensure high quality items:

1) Allow people to put whatever they want into the trade for their first 3 items (or 5, 8, 10, whatever . . . some arbitrary limitation to get items/people into the trade)

2) All other items must be wanted/wished for by at least 1 other person in the math trade (this can easily be seen in the OLWLG's Statistics page)


In this way, the math trade is open to everyone, but most of the items are likely to be higher quality since someone listed them as a want (and may likely do so when submitting a want list).


A MT with multiple tiers of items to encourage higher quality stuff--now that is a great idea.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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rgatti wrote:
2) All other items must be wanted/wished for by at least 1 other person in the math trade (this can easily be seen in the OLWLG's Statistics page)

funny you should suggest this... I had been thinking of this and how I could implement it within the OLWLG so there wouldn't be extra work. Except I wasn't going to allow part 1.

What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...
 
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James Ludlow
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JeffyJeff wrote:
What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...


If OLWLG is hiding an item, how would it get added to anyone's want list?

 
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Jeff Michaud
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jdludlow wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...
If OLWLG is hiding an item, how would it get added to anyone's want list?

Sorry for confusion... should read "BGG want and/or wish list"... ie. from folks BGG collection data. Ie. not the math trade want list.
 
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James Ludlow
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JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...
If OLWLG is hiding an item, how would it get added to anyone's want list?

Sorry for confusion... should read "BGG want and/or wish list"... ie. from folks BGG collection data. Ie. not the math trade want list.


Ah, nice. I'm not sure if the API supports this, but the person listing the game should not have his own wants/wishes counted, if you're worried about gaming the system.

 
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Michael Leuchtenburg
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jdludlow wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
jdludlow wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...
If OLWLG is hiding an item, how would it get added to anyone's want list?

Sorry for confusion... should read "BGG want and/or wish list"... ie. from folks BGG collection data. Ie. not the math trade want list.


Ah, nice. I'm not sure if the API supports this, but the person listing the game should not have his own wants/wishes counted, if you're worried about gaming the system.


It supports fetching that information for individual users, which JeffyJeff already does for his tool. Presumably that would be the data he'd use to make sure that at least one user in the trade has already added it to his/her wish/want list.
 
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Ryan Gatti
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JeffyJeff wrote:
rgatti wrote:
2) All other items must be wanted/wished for by at least 1 other person in the math trade (this can easily be seen in the OLWLG's Statistics page)

funny you should suggest this... I had been thinking of this and how I could implement it within the OLWLG so there wouldn't be extra work. Except I wasn't going to allow part 1.

What I was thinking is that anyone can still enter any items they want, except that the OLWLG wouldn't show those items until it's on the want and/or wish list of someone else in the math trade. But then I ask myself if it's worth the work...

I felt part 1 was necessary since the OLWLG only shows Wants/Wishes for people who already have items in the trade. Therefore, the Wants/Wishes have the most value once larger numbers of people have already listed items. Now, if people could "sign up" (or something similar) for a math trade prior to adding items, then you could enforce a requirement on only adding things Wanted or Wished for. If you could do this a few days before the Math Trade actually begins (like a Request list), this would be even better (so the Wants/Wishes aren't skewed toward the organizer and early posters.).
 
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Jeff Michaud
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rgatti wrote:
I felt part 1 was necessary since the OLWLG only shows Wants/Wishes for people who already have items in the trade. Therefore, the Wants/Wishes have the most value once larger numbers of people have already listed items. Now, if people could "sign up" (or something similar) for a math trade prior to adding items, then you could enforce a requirement on only adding things Wanted or Wished for. If you could do this a few days before the Math Trade actually begins (like a Request list), this would be even better (so the Wants/Wishes aren't skewed toward the organizer and early posters.).

The thing is that folks could "join" the MT at any time by adding items, and their BGG wants/wish lists would get sucked in, even if none of the items they were adding are any on anyone elses BGG wants/wish lists at that point in time (so their items wouldn't be visible to anyone else until someone else joins whose BGG wants/wish match).

However like I said, I'm not sure it's worth the time to implement. The problem is not the percentage of items being traded, it's not like a test where we have to get ever higher percentages. The real problem some folks complain about is going through the items offered and seeing and having to ignore offerings they are not interested in. So I feel time would be better spent on automatically ignoring items on an individual basis that they likely (or explicitly have said they) don't want to see.
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
rgatti wrote:
I felt part 1 was necessary since the OLWLG only shows Wants/Wishes for people who already have items in the trade. Therefore, the Wants/Wishes have the most value once larger numbers of people have already listed items. Now, if people could "sign up" (or something similar) for a math trade prior to adding items, then you could enforce a requirement on only adding things Wanted or Wished for. If you could do this a few days before the Math Trade actually begins (like a Request list), this would be even better (so the Wants/Wishes aren't skewed toward the organizer and early posters.).

The thing is that folks could "join" the MT at any time by adding items, and their BGG wants/wish lists would get sucked in, even if none of the items they were adding are any on anyone elses BGG wants/wish lists at that point in time (so their items wouldn't be visible to anyone else until someone else joins whose BGG wants/wish match).

However like I said, I'm not sure it's worth the time to implement. The problem is not the percentage of items being traded, it's not like a test where we have to get ever higher percentages. The real problem some folks complain about is going through the items offered and seeing and having to ignore offerings they are not interested in. So I feel time would be better spent on automatically ignoring items on an individual basis that they likely (or explicitly have said they) don't want to see.


Although it would be more work for me (and probably for you), it would be nice to (eventually) have a feature where the user could specify not only certain category filters (i.e. don't show me games published prior to 2005, don't show me games from users more than 2 states away, don't show me games rated below 6.5, don't show me games ranked below 1000, don't show me games published by Winsome) but also persist a list of do not show titles (i.e. don't show me offers that only include Fluxx or Monopoly or Commands & Colors).
And then to also have a "Must Show" override. So, ignore all the stuff specified above unless the offer includes a game that is a CCG on my Wanted List or unless the offer includes a game that is categorized as "Trains", etc.).
 
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Jeff Michaud
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RoamDog wrote:
don't show me games from users more than 2 states away

?? - This one I don't understand
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
don't show me games from users more than 2 states away

?? - This one I don't understand


Parcel post for intra-state and either one or two states away is $4.nn and more than that is more like $8.nn

Or, may want to meet semi-local gamers.

Or, may be planning a trip soon and can pick up on the way.
 
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RoamDog wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
RoamDog wrote:
don't show me games from users more than 2 states away

?? - This one I don't understand


Parcel post for intra-state and either one or two states away is $4.nn and more than that is more like $8.nn

Or, may want to meet semi-local gamers.

Or, may be planning a trip soon and can pick up on the way.


But it does not really matter which items are only 2 states away from you, since those items would be shipped TO you. There is no way of knowing where you will be sending your items, so it doesn't really make sense to only see items close to you.
 
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mbuckingham wrote:

But it does not really matter which items are only 2 states away from you, since those items would be shipped TO you. There is no way of knowing where you will be sending your items, so it doesn't really make sense to only see items close to you.


OK. Throw out that filter.

Although it is probably not a common scenario, if users making offers have specified that they will only cover the first $5, then I might want to limit my view to those states that would cause me no additional shipping charge. (OK. OK. I said upfront that I was grasping for straws on this one).
 
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RoamDog wrote:
mbuckingham wrote:

But it does not really matter which items are only 2 states away from you, since those items would be shipped TO you. There is no way of knowing where you will be sending your items, so it doesn't really make sense to only see items close to you.


OK. Throw out that filter.

Although it is probably not a probably scenario, if users making offers have specified that they will only cover the first $5, then I might want to limit my view to those states that would cause me no additional shipping charge. (OK. OK. I said upfront that I was grasping for straws on this one).


OK, that makes more sense. I thought you were trying to limit the amount you were paying to ship YOUR games.
 
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Jeff Michaud
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RoamDog wrote:
Although it is probably not a common scenario, if users making offers have specified that they will only cover the first $5, then I might want to limit my view to those states that would cause me no additional shipping charge. (OK. OK. I said upfront that I was grasping for straws on this one).

Not only are you grasping for straws, it took you a day to delete your prior post and repost with that grasp

So you want to filter out seeing 80%+ of the offerings because one of two of the offerings may be more than 2 States away and only cover the 1st $5 of shipping?

Sounds more like what you want to filter out seeing any listings where the sender is only covering the 1st $5 *AND* is more than 2 States away *AND* it's an item that is likely to cost more than $5 to ship (ie. bigger than a card game)

Why don't we just implement a direct neural interface into your brain
 
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JeffyJeff wrote:

Why don't we just implement a direct neural interface into your brain


Man, I knew the OLWLG had some powerful stuff inside, but can you really make it do this??
 
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