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Subject: Confused on endgame issues rss

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Billy McBoatface
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Neophyteg52y wrote:
1. I know what "Dame" is, and that Japanese rules players can fill it in alternating one piece at a time, along with making defensive moves if needed to strengthen their boundaries -- right after the double pass that ends the main gameplay. QUESTION: Do Chinese rules players ever fill in Dame after the double pass? I know that they would get points for filling them in, unlike Japanese rules players, so do they always try to fill in all the Dame before passing to end the game, or would such filling in be a lesser priority and/or a distraction before passing to end the game?
If there is dame left after the double pass in Chinese rules, then they players screwed up. Passing before dame is filled is giving up points, so you should never do it! If you do miss some dame and both players pass, oh well, the game is over and it is no points for anybody.
Quote:
2. I know what Seki is (Janice Kim uses the English phrase "Dual Life" to explain it). Is there any connection between Dame and Seki? Also, how does Seki figure into the scoring under Japanese rules and under Chinese rules?
The only connection between dame and seki is that seki will always have dame that you cannot fill in without letting your opponent kill your group in seki. In all other cases, you can fill all dame (and, in Chinese scoring, you should fill all other dame).
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3. QUESTION on disputes after the ending passes, and please state what to do for both the Japanese rules AND the Chinese rules: What do players do if they don't agree on which groups of stones are alive and which are dead? Do they always resume play? If they DON'T resume play, how do they settle the disagreements? If they DO resume play, please comment on the advantages/disadvantages of doing so.
In Japanese, if you don't agree on whether a group is alive or dead, you're basically screwed. There is a way to resolve the question, but it is extremely complex, and I know rules experts who insist that the system itself doesn't always work.

In Chinese, you can resume play if you and your opponent disagree on whether a group is alive or dead. This is the only time you would add more stones to the board after a double pass.

In practice, once you have played a dozen games it is very unlikely to have cases where the players disagree. In Japanese rules, the best thing to do is find a stronger player and ask them whether it is alive or dead. Nothing else will give the correct score at game end.
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Neophyteg52y wrote:
1. I know what "Dame" is, and that Japanese rules players can fill it in alternating one piece at a time, along with making defensive moves if needed to strengthen their boundaries -- right after the double pass that ends the main gameplay. QUESTION: Do Chinese rules players ever fill in Dame after the double pass? I know that they would get points for filling them in, unlike Japanese rules players, so do they always try to fill in all the Dame before passing to end the game, or would such filling in be a lesser priority and/or a distraction before passing to end the game?

In practice, most players fill in dame before passing, unless they are planning not to fill it in at all. As a beginner, filling it in is going to reveal unexpected atari and suchlike. So I think if you're not sure, you should fill in dame before you pass, regardless of the rules set.

Neophyteg52y wrote:
2. I know what Seki is (Janice Kim uses the English phrase "Dual Life" to explain it). Is there any connection between Dame and Seki? Also, how does Seki figure into the scoring under Japanese rules and under Chinese rules?

You can treat the whole seki position as being worth zero under Japanese rules. Under Chinese rules I think seki stones and even surrounded territory in a seki do count for points.

Neophyteg52y wrote:
3. QUESTION on disputes after the ending passes, and please state what to do for both the Japanese rules AND the Chinese rules: What do players do if they don't agree on which groups of stones are alive and which are dead? Do they always resume play? If they DON'T resume play, how do they settle the disagreements? If they DO resume play, please comment on the advantages/disadvantages of doing so.

wmshub explained this in great detail in another thread, but the short version is: under Japanese rules, after passing, they continue play until the life or death of one disputed group is decided, then remove all of the stones added since they passed; i.e. return the board to the state it was in when both players passed. Repeat until all disputed groups are resolved.

Once you get some experience you'll be able to 'see' common life and death situations and you won't need to go through the motions.

Under Chinese rules I think you just keep playing until both players pass again.

Neophyteg52y wrote:
4. If you have any other comments about endgame issues involved in Japanese rules and/or Chinese rules, please post them, making sure to say which of the two rulesets the comments are for. Thanks very much!! NEO

The endgame of go looks really confusing until you play a few games. The easiest way to handle it is just to end the game by agreement, i.e. talk to your opponent through the endgame, keep playing until you both agree on what's alive and dead, then you both pass.

Also, don't be afraid of Japanese rules. I think they're actually easier to learn than Chinese rules, and make scoring the game a lot faster.

Just play a bunch of games and you'll get the hang of it. Or, go to a go club and get someone to show you.
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Here's that thread with the gory details, just for completeness sake. Don't be put off by it, as it's mostly discussing stuff that you wont encounter in practice.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/165852/page/1
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Ken K
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Quote:
they continue play until the life or death is decided, then remove all of the stones added since they passed; i.e. return the board to the state it was in when both players passed.


Why would it be necessary to remove stones after the dispute is settled?

Prisoners, yes, and if my opponent has cast good stones to save a bad chain, then more points for me. He doesn't deserve to take them back.

If I have to match his plays to keep him from creating a viable chain we have merely kept the score the same. Total points are less, but the victor will still win by the same margin.

Am I missing something?

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Ken K
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Never mind... just read the link'd page and figured it out.

We never had a problem starting the game up again after both had passed if there was a dispute. That's not the Japanese way.

Thanks!
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Billy McBoatface
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Professor Plum wrote:
Why would it be necessary to remove stones after the dispute is settled?
Check the thread that sbszine referenced. I did an example situation, not even a very strange one, where a player who disagrees about obviously alive-or-dead groups will get extra points unless the board is returned to the "after two passes" position. It really does change the score if you leave the dispute stones there, and it isn't supposed to.

Edit: Oops, I see you checked the thread already while I was writing the reply. Never mind.
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Russ Williams
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I'll just chime in to emphasize one thing that's been said: If you simply fill in all dame before passing, things will be much clearer to you. It never hurts you to fill in dame. (Unless you consider shared liberties in a seki to be dame - of course you don't fill those in, since that puts your seki stones in atari, and the opponent will capture your stones.)

As mentioned already, filling in dame helps you in Chinese scoring, since your score is calculated as empty territory you surrounded + your stones on the board - so clearly it's in your interest to put more stones on the board. (Unless you're just putting them into your own territory - then you reduce your territory by 1 and increase your stones by 1, so no change in score - only at that point do you pass in Chinese.)

Filling in all dame will make things clearer because then you'll be forced to notice false eyes that you need to fill in, possible cutting points you must defend, simply dead groups, etc. Fill in dame before passing. (It's too bad that on the internet go servers, so many players are impatient and want to pass when there's still dame - it makes it confusing for beginners.)

If you both pass and then disagree about the life or death of a group, then just keep playing until you both agree - one player trying to kill it, the other defending it, until the stones are removed or clearly have two eyes, or you both agree before that point. (Yes, in the silly complicated Japanese rules, there are subtleties that make this not so simple. So don't play Japanese rules when you're learning. Just simply play that you're taking turns until you both agree what the situation is. The Go police won't arrest you.)
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Russ Williams
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Your description of "pristine go" is unclear to me, but if I understand, I think you mean that after both players pass, you count the score as if every stone on the board was alive, as if in seki...?

So any empty territory that touches stones of both colors is neutral and counts for neither player? Thus players would need to explicitly keep playing to explicitly capture and remove dead stones in order to get points for territory?

If that's what you mean, then I think the answer is "No, in real life, I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone play that way." People generally agree that certain stones are dead and don't insist on literally playing out the capture, e.g. of a single obviously unviable white stone inside a large black territory.

However beginners will occasionally play it out like that for certain parts of the board if they're not sure, and that's a perfectly fine thing to do if you're not sure of the status of some stones. But to play it out even when you both agree about the status seems like a pointless formal exercise in time-wasting.
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Billy McBoatface
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Neophyteg52y wrote:
Does anybody play "pristine" GO, which is my term for the following: A game of Go, where it is decided AHEAD of time to play as follows (and ONLY as follows):
If I understand you right, then no, nobody plays this game you describe. It is not go. It adds many moves to the end of the game that change the score. It also adds some tactics like placing a dead stone in the middle of an opponent eye, just to make them waste points capturing it. KGS does not support this game because it is not go.

If you want to play until every stone is removed, play by Chinese, AGA, etc. rules. Then you can play go and remove all the stones at the end of the game...but it's still a fairly tedious thing to do!
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Neophyteg52y wrote:
I ask these questions about "pristine" Go because I am worried by the uneasy feeling I have that the results of playing post-double-pass "shorthand" Go are too strangely unlike what the results of a complete game of "pristine" Go would be.

It sounds like you're still worried about determining life and death when scoring. If that's so, try playing on a small 9x9 board to start with (say for your first 10 games or so). Since it's so small, you should be able to determine life and death without much trouble.

Also, it doesn't matter if you get life and death wrong at first. I'm sure when I started playing I scored some dead positions as alive and vice versa. I probably still do! Unless you're judging a tournament or something it doesn't matter. Just play and enjoy the game, and build experience naturally.

If you like, I'll play some 9x9 with you on DGS and show you some basic endgame stuff.
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Christopher Giroir
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I'm in a roll in posting on old forums in the go section tonight but just wanted to add to this for other readers.

Even with Japanese scoring continuing play (for MOST cases) would not change the score:

1) Black passes
2) White thinks he can limit blacks score by playing in his territory instead of passing and does so
3) Black responds (in this game, blacks life is so certain he could just pass again if he wants, but in FULL fairness let's say he responds)
4) White now has to play again to keep this up.

Eventually this will end with white playing X stones in blacks territory and black playing X stones to capture them. The score hasn't changed. Black now has X more captures and X less spaces on the board.

In this situation black and just wait until the white stones have one liberty left and take them then giving him a better score. So in the worst case white loses points by trying this. It takes very strange situations for the Japanese scoring to really cause a difference between it and Chinese scoring which is why tournament systems (AGA) and stuff were invented.
 
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Ben Armstrong
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I would recommend you pick one rule set and learn it 100%. Then put what you learn into practice by playing many many games. Learning all these rule sets at the same time will just make a complicated game more so.
 
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