Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » General

Subject: Difficulty of CC:E vs. ASKSK #1 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Richard Latture
United States
Severna Park
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
Can anyone compare the difficulty of these games? I've tried to learn Advanced Squad Leader Starter Kit 1, but the sequence of play, starting with the complex movement phase, is impossible for me to get through.

Thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, what kind of games do you like? What's the most complicated you play and enjoy?

I've never played ASL but I'm pretty sure that it's more complicated than CC. Howver, the minimal and graded approach to the ASL starter kits is vastly simpler than ASL all at once, at least according to what I've read.

But it'd be good if you provide more information about your tastes so we can help you decide. Besides that, you can download the rules for CC:E and see how complicated (or not) they are.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mara Saurio
Spain
Valencia
Valencia
flag msg tools
Logitech G25 + rFactor + XtremeRacers = pure sim racing!!!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, ASLSK#1 is more difficult (complex) than CC:E. That's it.
CC:E takes some of ASL great things and simplifies them, and introduces a hand-management engine. That CC:E is a heir of ASL is indisputable.

BUT, if you find somebody to teach you ASLSK#1 or if you read the amazing tutorials that Jay wrote in BGG, I find ASLSK#1 more interesting and brilliant (it's a matter of taste, of course). And later you may update to Artillery or Tanks, or the full ASL step by step.
It's an effort that takes weeks, but it's absolutely worth it IMO, but it deppends on your WWII wargaming interest.

And if you finally master the rules, I find it easier to explain to non-gamers than CC:E (REALLY!) because they rapidly go into their choices: move, shooting, rallying and all of that, and CC:E appears too random and senseless to them at the beginning.

I own both. I find ASL THE game, and CC:E a card-driven variant (a really good one, BTW). I only want to get deeper and deeper in ASL, and I like every kind of game, too, not just wargames.

See if something that I've said suit your needings or opinions and wait for somebody else's.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
César
Spain
flag msg tools
Otro mundo es necesario!
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I wanted to play and have a tactical wargame about WW2.

I began trying to learn ASL SK1 because it is said to be one of the best tacticals, but I was becoming confused and a little bit bored.

Then I tried with CCE and everything was perfectly explained, and I read it with pleasure. Then I played it, and it was even better. I've played many games, and this one is extraordinary!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Powers
United States
Triangle
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I played ASL back in the 70s and 80s, and the rules added to rules added to rules eventually forced me away from the game.

I have both CC:E and CC:M (and playtested a bit of CC), and I love the system. It really scratches the WW2 tactical itch I've had since I gave up on ASL. CC:E is always in my car, ready to play!

I have not played ASKSK, but am pretty sure CC:E would be less difficult.

I live in Virginia, and would be glad to show you the game. If you would like to get together, send me an email.

Bill
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marty M
Ireland
Fermoy
Co Cork
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CC:E has straightforward, unambiguous & intuitive rules, and has one of the best written rulebooks you will find. The rules are available for download here in the files section & on the GMT homepage. There is an extended example of play that comes with the game that walks you through a few turns of a scenario - it all makes sense & falls into place when you do so.

Above all, CC:E is fast & fun.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Latture
United States
Severna Park
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
Mark,
I started wargaming back in the late '70s and my all-time favorite is Russian Campaign. Recently I've been playing Ambush! and am starting Guilford from GMT's Great Battles of the American Revolution. I also recently bought Commands and Colors: Ancients. For years I had a copy of SPQR but couldn't penetrate the rules. I seem to collect more games than I actually play. That's partly because almost all of my gaming is solo. I realize Combat Commander isn't especially well suited to solitaire play, but I'd like to learn it. Game just looks great.

Bill,
Thanks for your kind offer. I'll email you.

Richard
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uncle Greasy
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just played my first game of CC yesterday - WOW! This is by far the best WWII hex-board-skirmish-game that I've ever played. It runs very smooth and brilliantly entertaining.

As to ASL, I played it once many years ago and even owned the huge rules set and supplements - I found ASL way to fiddly for my taste, but necessarily so for the level of realistic details.

In short, I'd say CC is far simpler.

Justo
[url][/url]www.UncleGreasy.com
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Ruzzo
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll add my voice as well: CC:E is considerably simpler than ASL to pick up. There are quite a few "special" rules and situations in CC:E, but since most of them are written out on the cards (special actions and events), you only learn about them one at a time as they become used in the game.

For example: Infantry have the ability to use smoke grenades if they have a box around their movement value. Now you don't need to know this or any of the rules on smoke until you have a smoke grenade card in hand and a unit with a boxed movement value. At that point, the card explains how it works (unit can place a smoke marker adjacent to itself...etc.) and you may have to look up the rules to remember how smoke works (as a hindrance to line of sight that is randomly determined).

However, you may not even run into this situation in your first game at all! Maybe you never get a smoke grenade action card when you have a unit with boxed movement, or maybe the only time you got one was when you wanted to use the order on the card instead of the smoke grenade action.


This nesting of special circumstantial rules means you don't have to be overwhelmed to start with - you can learn the basic rules and what orders do (there are only Move, Fire, Artillery Request, Artillery Denied, Advance, Recover, Rout) and you can play from there.

I find it unfolds nicely in complexity as you play. You learn more and more interesting tactical decisions that are open to you, but were not at once overwhelming.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Uncle Greasy
United States
Miami
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
... good point and let me add the obvious comment...

After you’ve played it and become familiar with some of these card elements (i.e. like smoke placement by units with square around their movement number), your tactical choices improve.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Since I posted above, I've acquired ASLSK#1 and learned to play it. The rules are certainly not as organized as CC but they are easy enough to understand if you can understand the CC rules. (By organized, I mean outlined and indexed).

As for the complexity of the two games, I would rate them as pretty equal. There's a lot of little details to remember in ASLSK and there's a lot of little details to remember in CC (and that's apart from the Orders, Actions and Events).

For example:

ASLSK #1: You have to remember that a roll of doubles on a fire attack without leader results in Cowering (shifting the results one column left, or two columns left if the unit is Green or Conscript).

CC: You have to remember that a particular artillery roll will destroy a particular value fortification.

Both of the above are on the player aids but if you don't remember the rule, you won't remember to check!

Another example:

ASLSK#1: You need to know that a leader's second number is read as a "minus" and is a die roll modifier for a variety of checks made by units stacked with the leader.

CC: You need to remember that a leader's leadership number is (1) it's command radius in hexes for activating other units and (2) a modifier of ALL the stats of a unit that is stacked with the leader.

One more:

ASLSK#1: You need to be familiar with the turn order and what happens in each phase of the turn.

CC: You need to have a general idea of how to activate a unit, play an order, what the order does, and any actions played along with it.

So, both games have plenty of details you need to learn and will likely only come with repeated play. But as for the TOTAL amount of complex details and rules to learn, I would say they are pretty equivalent.

Remember, we're talking the Starter Kits here, not full ASL.

Having played the ASLSK#1, it is quite apparent that CC stands in a long tradition of tactical WWII games. Many of the concepts and rules are the same or similar.

For example: Leaders, morale, terrain effects, fire groups, unit stacking, die roll effects, routing, rallying, advancing, opportunity/defensive fire, turn sequence, victory conditions, and so on. While each game implements these differently, each game does have them.

So...without further rambling, I'd say this: the two are pretty equal in complexity but because of the more detailed and organized rules of CC, it would be a bit easier to learn CC from "scratch" and move to ASLSK#1 than the other way around.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.