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Subject: Ambiguity in English Translation. rss

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Anthony Simons
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I need to clear this up, because I don't know which is the right way to play. In the rules it states unsupplied teepees are removed from the board; the associated example states:

Wind River English Rules wrote:
Example 2:
You have two unsupplied tipis and one resource in your personal stock. You pay the resource for one of the two tipis which one is your choice) and put the unsupplied tipi back to the unused tipis in front of you. You may insert it again later in the game.


Later in the rules they state:

Wind River English Rules wrote:
The game ends when no tipis are left in the game - they have either entered the open plains at the end of the gameboard, or have to be taken out of the game due to lack of resources.


Let me just highlight those two points:

Wind River English Rules wrote:
...put the unsupplied tipi back to the unused tipis in front of you. You may insert it again later in the game.


and

Wind River English Rules wrote:
...or have to be taken out of the game due to lack of resources.


So which is it? Unfortunately I never noticed this when I read through the rules before buying at Essen; I seem to remember something being said about the translation at the time but I can't remember which way it went. It seems to me that unsupplied teepees should be taken out of the game; I just need a definite answer. We had to stop play last night at a point way beyond when we thought the game should end, so I'm tending towards the latter.
 
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Mik Svellov
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fellonmyhead wrote:
So which is it?


Both!
The game ends when there are no more Tipis left in the game (ie. active on the board) - either because they have already reached the goal (the Open Plains) or because they are still in the players supplies.

... and note, that while I don't know whether the English translation have errors or not, I have used the German rules, and they state the same as you have quoted.
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Anthony Simons
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Great Dane wrote:
fellonmyhead wrote:
So which is it?


Both!
The game ends when there are no more Tipis left in the game (ie. active on the board) - either because they have already reached the goal (the Open Plains) or because they are still in the players supplies.


It can't be both; you either lose your teepees permanently when they are removed from the board, or they go back into your available supply.

I understand what you are saying, but from our game last night there are two side effects which together are undesirable. One is that players can, as long as there is at least one of their teepees on the board, continuously recycle their teepees. The other is that the game is considerably longer than it ought to be. Together these produce the effect that it is easier for a player to finish with all seven teepees in the plains; it's just a matter of time for him to gather the resources and move up the plains.

I'm not certain the other interpretation is without issues, but I do know the game would have ended much quicker for us if we had played that way. It would also have been more aggressive and from that I probably would have enjoyed it more.
 
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Mik Svellov
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fellonmyhead wrote:
It can't be both; you either lose your teepees permanently when they are removed from the board, or they go back into your available supply.


Well, not according to the German rules.
I can understand why the rules as written may suck, and they may very well be false. But they are easy to understand:

Unsupplied Tipis are returned to the player's supply.
You can only place a new Tipi onto the board by paying the necessary cost.
The game ends once NO tipis are found on the board.
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Anthony Simons
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Thanks for that, Mik; it seems we were playing it correctly all along...
...how disappointing.
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Eddie B
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You do realize you can only collect resources from tipis that have no tipis from other players in their hex and that the maximum number of buffalo's in a hex is 5? I made those mistakes the first time.
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Anthony Simons
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burrie wrote:
You do realize you can only collect resources from tipis that have no tipis from other players in their hex and that the maximum number of buffalo's in a hex is 5? I made those mistakes the first time.


Indeed I do. There was a constant effort on many players' parts to foul up others resource gathering capabilities; unfortunately this was usually followed with them being stitched-up with a forced lack of their own resources.
 
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Nick Case
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Perhaps this might be a bit clearer;

An unsupported Tipi is removed from the board and back into a players supply. This Tipi can be brought back onto the board later so although off the board is still 'in the game'.

A Tipi which has successfully migrated off the board to score a point is 'off the board' (+1 point) and cannot be brought back into the game. It is therefore out of the game per se and purely acts as a one point scoring marker from then.

Clear as mud huh?
 
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Mik Svellov
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
Perhaps this might be a bit clearer;

An unsupported Tipi is removed from the board and back into a players supply. This Tipi can be brought back onto the board later so although off the board is still 'in the game'.


Then how do you account for this rule?:
Wind River English Rules wrote:
The game ends when no tipis are left in the game - they have either entered the open plains at the end of the gameboard, or have to be taken out of the game due to lack of resources.
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Nick Case
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Point scoring Tipis that have gone off the end can't be recycled back into the game. Tipis that expire owing to a lack of support can be recycled back in.

If there are no tipis on the game board the game is over.

Regardless of how accurately or not the English rules have been translated, they are the rules. How do I know? Because thats how it was demonstrated by the designer in Essen. And its tortuous to interprert in any other way.

Is that any clearer?
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Anthony Simons
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Big Bad Lex wrote:
Regardless of how accurately or not the English rules have been translated, they are the rules. How do I know? Because thats how it was demonstrated by the designer in Essen. And its tortuous to interprert in any other way.


And thank you for clarifying that this was the designer's intent, Nick; it is much appreciated. It still doesn't change the fact the English rules are ambiguous, but I (and probably everybody else who read the English-language rules) appreciate your help.
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Mik Svellov
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I haven't read the English rules.
I am referring to the GERMAN rules, which (I suppose) are written by the designer.
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Steve+Jackie McKeogh
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I don't want to re-ignite this but it may just help clarify to give a better translation of the German rule. The German: 'Das Spiel endet, wenn keine Tipis mehr im Spiel sind - weil sie die Open Plains erreicht haben oder nicht mehr versorgt werden können und wieder in den eigenen Vorrat kommen'. This can be better translated as:

'The game ends when there are no more tipis in play - since they have either reached the Open Plains or have been returned to the players' stocks because they could not be fed'.

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Tor Sverre Lund
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"The game" should probably have been "the board" instead. Tipis lost due to resources are not "out of the game", but they are "off the board" and returned to your stock. Tipis who have "wandered east" are also "off the board", but not returned to your stock. Just leave them in the big open space, as they are counted at the end of the game. And the game ends when no more tipis are left on the board (in any of the hexagons), except those already wandered off.

I really never thought the rules were ambigious on this point, not even as a non-native English speaker. But I have to say the English rules provided are horrible. Very bad English all the way through. In dire need of a rewrite.
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Rodney Arndt
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I played this for the first time last night. On my final turn of the game I had one remaining teepee on the board, there were no other bison or teepees left from other players. Is the game over or do I still get to move my final teepee of the board?

I didn't have a bison to move. Does the game end in this case even though I still had one remaining teepee on the board? I guess what I'm asking is..... What happens if teepees remain on the board but there are no bison left in play on the board? Do you continue playing without moving bison?
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Tor Sverre Lund
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The game doesn't end before there are no more Tipis on the board, so you'd still get a go. The lack of bison to move does not stop you.
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