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Subject: Terraforming Guild is pretty good, isn't it? rss

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Kester J
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Terraforming Guild is probably my favourite new card: I don't think I've ever had it in my hand and not wanted to play it. If you're going for a settle-heavy strat, you get lots of cards, a few goods along the way, and probably 10+ points at game end. If you're going with production, the windfall produce power gives you flexibility in card play and timing, and you'll probably still end up with at least 6 points from this card at the end. It's crazy. Why it gives 2 points just for existing I don't know.
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Greg Jones
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Yeah, I think so. I haven't really used it too much because I'm used to Consume strategies being the best in the original game, and Terraforming Guild doesn't do much for you there. But, it seems like you can use it to do nothing but Settle windfall worlds and trade their goods to get more money to Settle more, and do pretty well.

Terraforming Guild plus 11 windfall worlds = probably at least 35 points (11 base point value, 22 bonus, 2 for Terraforming Guild for itself).

I mean it's not unbeatable but it's pretty good.
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Kester J
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It's not out of place in a consume strat either, as it lets a windfall act as a production world. It seems to have the wide applicability of SETI, only with better powers and more points!
 
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El-ad David Amir
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Definitely. In fact, if you draw it early on you might want to form your strategy around it. Two points per windfall world is extremely useful, especially considering most non-yellow windfall worlds are awfully cheap. If you start with any military (even one from EE/SC) the plethora of free windfall worlds you have available increases even further.
 
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Brian Bankler
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Yes, it's a harbinger of a good score. It's usually worth 6 points in most tableus, and can easily be worth 10+. The produce on a windfall is usually worth a couple of VPs in the endgame (unless you are short on consume powers) and the ability is often worth a few cards if played early.
 
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Juraj Sulik
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In my last advanced 2-player game i started with Ancient race, went military and scored 18! points just for TG (7 windfall world including starting AR, plus robots and guild itself), not to mention 6+ cards and 5+ goods i got out of TG's powers during the game. I won the game 46 to 33 against DAF, that was unable to keep up the pace with my settle/trade.
Although that was my personal record at receiving most points out of one card (2nd place is NGO with 16vps), TG scores at least 8+ points everytime it hits the table, and when combined with Alien Toy Shop, it's unstoppable combo.
IIRC, in almost all of my RftG games with Gathering Storm, the player that pulled out TG had either won the game, or at least scored very high and got closely beaten just by a lucky draw of the winner.
Compared to it's counterpart - Merchant Guild, it gives 2 points for prod worlds ONLY! TG's powers don't seem worse than MG's (probably even better), and the 2-4 points boost for robots and TG itself are quite significant.
Hence i think, that TG is the most versatile and highest scoring card superior to any other 6-dev. I only hope, that in the second expansion won't be any new 'terraforming' cards, or this can get REALLY out of hand.
I'm not saying like this card is broken or something, but just like Alien Toy Shop, this is very powerful no-brainer that you want to place almost anytime (until it comes to your hand near the end game and you have no windfall world nor terraforming robots), which is fizzling the principle of 'each card can be one's treasure, while other one's trash'. TG seems like treasure way too often for my taste.
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JW
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And if you happen to start with New Sparta, or with an early Contact Specialist, with some lucky draws into Improved Logistics, Terraforming Robots, and Terraforming Guild, each settle phase nets you 2 windfall worlds and 5 (3+2) cards! :D

That means you don't even have to trade the windfall goods anymore. Which means that if you happen to get Pilgrimage World on the penultimate turn, you could Consume x2 for massive points :D

Story aside, I've come to realise that its useful to think of the 6 cost developments in terms a continuum between 2 extremes:
1) More useful to put out early as its powers give you a chain reaction (for lack of a better term) that helps you get massive points
2) More useful to put out late just for the points it gives and not so much for its powers

I suppose developments like Free Trade Association (FTA) and Mining League (ML) would fall somewhere closer to extreme number 1, while others like New Economy, Galactic Survey: SETI and Galactic Genome Project (seems pretty difficult to get a genes Produce-Consume cycle going) would be closer to extreme 2, with the rest of them being more towards one extreme or the other.

That being said, Terraforming Guild seems to be pretty good as it fits both extremes of the situation I outlined above. If you're doing a Settle strategy, it sets you up early and allows you to Trade after other people Produce. In the situation of the 2nd extreme, at best it gives you massive points, more often than not, it gives you 6 points, because it gives 2 for itself.

I suppose this is what the developers meant as the Settling answer for the Produce-Consume cycle engines of the FTA and ML. However, if you were doing a Produce Consume cycle using either FTA and ML, drawing Terraforming Guild at the end is worth more than a Settle strategy using Terraforming Guild and drawing either FTA or ML at the end.

However, in this current set that we have, the incentives to Settle lots of windfalls are certainly quite high. Plenty of Genes windfall to be put down for cheap, with 3 developments to give it massive points (Galactic Genome Project, Pan Galactic League, and Terraforming Guild); more Alien cards, quite a few of them windfalls, giving lots of points by themselves, but becoming massive due to Alien Tech Institute and Terraforming Guild as well.

I suppose my argument here is that Terraforming Guild seems to give you 6 or more points more often than not, regardless of what strategy you're going, and maybe it shouldn't give 2 points for itself.

(p.s. I'll agree before hand that my arguments are not without holes, and I was just giving examples of extremes. There has been a few times where I got the Terraforming Guild in hand but still chucked it away in favour of other things.)
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Warren Cheung
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I think Terraforming is a pretty natural counterpart to Merchant Guild. They reward specialised tableaus, so in terms of getting it late game, you're either lucky or you're not. I'm very glad that Terraforming is in the expansion - it makes up for all the times I've got a whackload of windfalls and I draw Merchant for nary a point. Then again, if your tableau would score well for Merchant Guild, Terraforming is the last card you want to draw at the end. But in my view, this comes in dead even with Free Trade/Mining League/Pan-Gal/Alien Tech - your tableau might score big, usually you'll get a bunch of points and sometimes it'll be pretty much worthless.

As for being overpowered, I think it's just a matter of TG filling a gap in the power spectrum, so people are revelling in the ability to do something they couldn't before. Before, if you needed the powers of TG, you'd be up a creek without a paddle - now you have a hope. But if you're doing something else anyways - development strategy, produce-consume strategy - it's going to be yet another card to discard.
 
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Colin Hunter
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TF guild is probably the only new card I don't like. I can be incredibly decisive. I don't think it is broken, I just am not a massive fan of it.
 
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Patrick Runyan
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Kester wrote:
Terraforming Guild is probably my favourite new card: I don't think I've ever had it in my hand and not wanted to play it. If you're going for a settle-heavy strat, you get lots of cards, a few goods along the way, and probably 10+ points at game end. If you're going with production, the windfall produce power gives you flexibility in card play and timing, and you'll probably still end up with at least 6 points from this card at the end. It's crazy. Why it gives 2 points just for existing I don't know.


The opposite has been true for me. I've often wanted to play it and not had it in hand. So far no one I have played with has used it. I expect there will be more terraforming cards in the future--or should I say I hope there will be.
 
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jpwrunyan wrote:
Kester wrote:
Terraforming Guild is probably my favourite new card: I don't think I've ever had it in my hand and not wanted to play it. If you're going for a settle-heavy strat, you get lots of cards, a few goods along the way, and probably 10+ points at game end. If you're going with production, the windfall produce power gives you flexibility in card play and timing, and you'll probably still end up with at least 6 points from this card at the end. It's crazy. Why it gives 2 points just for existing I don't know.


The opposite has been true for me. I've often wanted to play it and not had it in hand. So far no one I have played with has used it. I expect there will be more terraforming cards in the future--or should I say I hope there will be.
two cards with "Terraforming" on it just simply isn't enough. Of course, whatever new stuff coming at us for exp #1 may compensate for having more cards with "Terraforming" on it
 
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Kester J
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warrenac wrote:
I think Terraforming is a pretty natural counterpart to Merchant Guild. They reward specialised tableaus, so in terms of getting it late game, you're either lucky or you're not. I'm very glad that Terraforming is in the expansion - it makes up for all the times I've got a whackload of windfalls and I draw Merchant for nary a point. Then again, if your tableau would score well for Merchant Guild, Terraforming is the last card you want to draw at the end. But in my view, this comes in dead even with Free Trade/Mining League/Pan-Gal/Alien Tech - your tableau might score big, usually you'll get a bunch of points and sometimes it'll be pretty much worthless.

As for being overpowered, I think it's just a matter of TG filling a gap in the power spectrum, so people are revelling in the ability to do something they couldn't before. Before, if you needed the powers of TG, you'd be up a creek without a paddle - now you have a hope. But if you're doing something else anyways - development strategy, produce-consume strategy - it's going to be yet another card to discard.


Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's overpowered. It's seeing a lot of play at the moment, but I'm nowhere near having fully assimilated the Gathering Storm cards into my playstyle. As you say, it's great fun being able to construct tableaus you previously couldn't score well with. In fact, they remind me of the tableaus I used to make when first playing RftG, where I had no real idea what I was doing and so would play lots of cheap windfall worlds: now that's actually a viable strategy .

I think the comparison to Merchant Guild is a good one. There's some similarity in the slots they fill, but Terraforming Guild seems a bit more lopsided towards points, and Merchant Guild has a better power, especially if you won't score much from it.
 
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Kester wrote:
I think the comparison to Merchant Guild is a good one. There's some similarity in the slots they fill, but Terraforming Guild seems a bit more lopsided towards points, and Merchant Guild has a better power, especially if you won't score much from it.
That's the reason I built it, even though it ended up getting me only 2pts from it. Drawing 2 cards at the start of each Produce is nice. Unless the game is going so poorly for a large group of players who can't seem to get a decent production going, you can count on a fair share of produce actions being called.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/359922

Back to TG, I do like how just the card itself is worth 2pts, not that windfall worlds are that difficult to get, but it's good to know that boost is there.
 
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El-ad David Amir
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warrenac wrote:
I think Terraforming is a pretty natural counterpart to Merchant Guild.

I disagree. I think that windfall worlds are generally cheaper than production worlds. Further, utilizing them takes less time (just Consume/Trade, no need to produce). Terraforming Guild is much faster than Merchant Guild. The downside, of course, is that your consumption is probably lacking.
 
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Warren Cheung
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IirionClaus wrote:
warrenac wrote:
I think Terraforming is a pretty natural counterpart to Merchant Guild.

I disagree. I think that windfall worlds are generally cheaper than production worlds. Further, utilizing them takes less time (just Consume/Trade, no need to produce). Terraforming Guild is much faster than Merchant Guild. The downside, of course, is that your consumption is probably lacking.


I think it's a bit deceptive to just look at planet cost - windfalls may be cheaper to put out, but also mean less VPs, so tableau value suffers.
 
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warrenac wrote:
IirionClaus wrote:
warrenac wrote:
I think Terraforming is a pretty natural counterpart to Merchant Guild.

I disagree. I think that windfall worlds are generally cheaper than production worlds. Further, utilizing them takes less time (just Consume/Trade, no need to produce). Terraforming Guild is much faster than Merchant Guild. The downside, of course, is that your consumption is probably lacking.


I think it's a bit deceptive to just look at planet cost - windfalls may be cheaper to put out, but also mean less VPs, so tableau value suffers.
I would've thought the immediately available windfall good to trade makes up for that by not having to waste a produce action and being able to get 3 to 9 cards to build stuff with or build onto your tableau. Having that many cards gives one many options (hopefully)
 
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Ben Hodgson
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I think it's a bit too good - very good abilities and good scoring opportunities with many cheap windfalls. Almost every game it has appeared (in 2 player at least) it has been on the winning side. If the vps for windfalls were reduced somehow (1 is a bit too little I think) I think it would be fairer. Perhaps only green and alien windfalls give 2 vp, the rest give 1 vp?
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Dave J McWeasely
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I have no problem with cards that slightly beat the spread. If TERRAFORMING Guild gives 1-2 more vp for my military strat than Galactic IMPERIUM, then fine, no problem. Also, you have to admit, it gives TERRAFORMING Robots some much needed cachet.

In order for me to worry, a card has to shatter the spread and be WTF-grade broken.

Ah, for the good old days when all we had to compalain about was Gambling World.
 
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What's with the Terraformed world not being a Terraforming card? I know it's a bit of overkill to get another 2VP out of a 5-cost/5VP card, but it would at least add another Terraforming card to the deck.
 
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Mahatmajon wrote:
What's with the Terraformed world not being a Terraforming card? I know it's a bit of overkill to get another 2VP out of a 5-cost/5VP card, but it would at least add another Terraforming card to the deck.
I guess they thought a 5/5 card was enough without any further bonuses. Fret not, for when exp #2 comes there are sure to be at least 2 more Terraforming cards. At least the windfall worlds are keeping TG a good card for scoring.
 
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Mahatmajon wrote:
What's with the Terraformed world not being a Terraforming card? I know it's a bit of overkill to get another 2VP out of a 5-cost/5VP card, but it would at least add another Terraforming card to the deck.

I'd hazard Terraformed World is done. It's not terraforming any more. Now it's just pretty. So the Guildsmen don't have anything to do with it any more.
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Dave J McWeasely
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TERRAFORMINGed World
Eggsept you can see the big terraforming satelites from near space. I'm guessing they employ some serious numbers of people/robots/hyperintelligent-shades-of-the-color-blue maintaining their existing infrastructure.
 
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MrWeasely wrote:
Eggsept you can see the big terraforming satelites from near space. I'm guessing they employ some serious numbers of people/robots/hyperintelligent-shades-of-the-color-blue maintaining their existing infrastructure.

By Tom's Thumb, I think I was right And the satellites, they're just satellites. They might keep the status quo. But there are no more decisions to be done, no planning and no science to puzzle out. No new materials to introduce, no asteroids to crash into the planet. On the satellites, there may be robots - but I'd guess they're probably unmanned (and un-huluvu-ed).
 
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Lately in games this card seems to be pretty unstoppable. I was contemplating taking it out. My issues with the card is it is both easy to score very high with and has massive utility. I am not sure I have seen it score less then 8 VPs. More often then not it is 10+. The fact it counts its self is icing on the cake/salt in the wound.

This would be fine if it was balanced by merely adequate utility. Instead it gets two very good powers. The stronger of the two being the passive windfall cover. This alone would have been enough since you are getting good utility out of it and you are going to score high. The fact that it also has the settle for a card in hand just seems unnecessary.

I am going to see how it continues to perform but so far I am not liking it. It just seems too good. I am not sure why they put in two ways for it to score and gave it two powers one being very strong.

I know that windfalls are generally not as useful as regular production worlds but with the auto cover on produce this card does not balance out a windfall strategy it makes it a near unstoppable scoring engine.
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Kester J
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Aye, it still concerns me too. I thought when I initially made this thread that I'd probably find its value would reduce as I got used to Gathering Storm, but Terraforming Guild is still going strong. It's not quite as good as I originally thought, but it's easily the best 6-dev in the deck.

As you say, it just fits everywhere; it's often got SETI's scoring potential or better, plus two good powers. It does have a slight weakness in that it doesn't pay itself back quickly (like, say, Merchant Guild can) unless you have a high-cost windfall you can replenish, but once you have a few cards in hand, the settle power makes it a monster.

Oh, and there are rumours of another Terraforming 6-dev in the next expansion, which will probably make it even better (or worse, depending on your point of view).
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