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Monty Python Fluxx» Forums » Rules

Subject: The Animator rss

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Bradford Bal
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If a player has The Animator and no one has the Finger of God, then the Animator card states that it counts as the Finger of God. However, we are strongly debating if this means it can count as both at the same time in order to fulfill the Meaning of Life goal. Can anyone shed some light on this?
 
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Nick Short
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Yes, it would be both. This wouldn't be the first time a goal could be met with a single keeper.
 
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Bryan Stout
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I am certain that the answer is No. You must have both the Animator and Finger of God cards to fulfill the Meaning of Life Goal. Otherwise: A) there would be no purpose in specifying both Keepers if only the one were necessary; and B) it would make The Meaning of Life the only Goal requiring one Keeper, which you just do not see in Fluxx games*.

In rules interpretation in any game, the balance between perceived intent and literal following of the text is a case-by-case issue, depending on too many factors to make a universal principal out of. In this case, for me, perceived intent is clear and wins out.


On another note, I had wondered whether the Animator counts as the Finger of God only for Goals -- except The Meaning of Life -- or whether it can be used for smiting. I had thought the answer would be No, no smiting, because that would require knowledge of a card which explicitly is not on the table, and a property of Fluxx is that most of the rules are on the cards. However, when Andy Looney answered the question, to my surprise he said Yes (link).

So I don't always predict Andy's thinking, but I am still certain in my answer above and will be surprised again if he were to answer differently. (The existence of the disagreement you all had means that in a future printing they may add some text to The Meaning Of Life to prevent this in the future.)



* Yes, a very few Goals do require just one Keeper, but they also have at least one other condition: All You Need Is Love in Fluxx 3.1 requries the Love Keeper, but also having no other Keepers; I Alone Survived in Zombie Fluxx requires the Car, having no Friends or Zombies, and everyone else having at least one Zombie. A single-condition Goal just isn't seen, AFAIK.

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Bradford Bal
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Once more, we have dissenting opinions! I can only hope that there is an official ruling at some point. Nice to know that The Animator can smite, though.

As far as no goal making you win with a single keeper, I disagree. There are goals in vanilla Fluxx where you win with War (no Peace) and Brain (no TV). This would basically be winning with The Animator, plus no other player has The Finger of God. It's a similar condition to prior goals.
 
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Bryan Stout
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Ah, so you took the opposite opinion from what I thought. I too hope for an official ruling.

In my footnote above I clarified that yes, a few Goals do require only one Keeper, but they all have a second condition: War (No Peace) requires that Peace not be on the table; and Brain (No TV) likewise requires that TV not be on the table. The interpretation that The Animator suffices for The Meaning of Life means that this Goal requires only one Keeper, period, which I don't think exists for any other Goal.

And it still doesn't make sense to me for it to ask for two Keepers if only one is needed.
 
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Bradford Bal
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But there is another condition. The Hand of God must not be on the table. If it is, then The Animator no longer counts as The Hand of God and you cannot win with that one keeper. This makes it similar to the War (No Peace) and Brain (No TV) goals.

I certainly understand the other line of reasoning, but I still lean towards the interpretation that this one card is capable of meeting both of the goal conditions. There is precedent with the other 2 goals mentioned.
 
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Bryan Stout
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I think I get what you're saying: with The Meaning of Life (TMOL), you win if you have The Animator (TA), but not if someone else has The Finger of God (TFOG). That is, you win if you have TA and TFOG both, or TA and noone has TFOG.

That makes more sense to me now, and I do respect your opinion, but I still disagree. I'm certain this interpretation wasn't the original intention, or it would have said it explicitly.

Should this be allowed as a reasonable unforeseen yet acceptable consequence of the cards? I usually like such things in games, as they provide greater depth and reward ingenuity. But in this case it still feels wrong, in part because it violates the (to me at least) clear intention on the card, which tends to cause arguments.

But it also runs against another principle: The Fluxx promo Keeper Earth says "Counts as Dirt, Water or Air in EcoFluxx." Now EcoFluxx has some Goals that use two of those, e.g. Mud requires Dirt and Water. Andy has ruled that Keepers such as Earth can only stand for one Keeper at a time -- you still need two Keepers to win. (I cannot find the reference, unfortunately.)

By this same principle, I think that TA should not be able to count as itself as well as TFOG at the same time.

 
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Simon Wilcock
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Barliman wrote:
* Yes, a very few Goals do require just one Keeper, but they also have at least one other condition: All You Need Is Love in Fluxx 3.1 requries the Love Keeper, but also having no other Keepers; I Alone Survived in Zombie Fluxx requires the Car, having no Friends or Zombies, and everyone else having at least one Zombie. A single-condition Goal just isn't seen, AFAIK.


The Cheese stands alone.

oh, and never pick up a duck in a dungeon. oops, wrong game.
 
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Bryan Stout
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Steerpike.Instance wrote:
Barliman wrote:
* Yes, a very few Goals do require just one Keeper, but they also have at least one other condition: All You Need Is Love in Fluxx 3.1 requires the Love Keeper, but also having no other Keepers; ... A single-condition Goal just isn't seen, AFAIK.
[emphasis added]

The Cheese stands alone.

TCSA, from Family Fluxx, is like AYNIS: they both have the second condition that you have no other Keepers except the specified one (Cheese or Love).


Steerpike.Instance wrote:
oh, and never pick up a duck in a dungeon. oops, wrong game.

I had to do a search on that to get the reference. I have played (and own) Munchkin Cthulhu, but not the original Munchkin. I apparently like chaotic, thematic games (as well as many other types).
 
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Bradford Bal
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I did send an email to Looney Labs to get a definite ruling, and have gotten a response. I humbly post Andy's official ruling:

Quote:
While God Himself may be omnipresent, nothing else can be in two places at once. Since the card shows two things being required, you need to have both slots filled. While the Animator can take the place of the Finger on other Goals, you need him to be himself when the Goal is the Meaning of Life, and he can't do that if he's off on the other side of the card being the Finger of God.

To clear this up on future editions, we should probably change the Animator's fine print from "Counts as..." to "Can count instead as..."

-- Andy
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Nick Short
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I stand corrected.

For the record, there was a goal in Fluxx that could be completed with a single keeper with no other requirements. The "Ring" keeper counted as both love and ...something else I can't remember, and both appeared on the same Goal card. Of course, the Ring was a promo card from a Con, not an original inclusion.
 
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Bryan Stout
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I did a search on the Looney Labs site, and they don't list the Ring among their promo cards. I think you're referring to this page of Fluxx love stories. At the bottom it mentions a couple who had a special set made up for their wedding at Origins 2006 (follow the link there for more details).

Steve & Amy's "Ring" Keeper counts as The Sun and Love. I cannot think of any Goal that referred to both those Keepers. And their Goal, Stands The Test Of Time, required Time and Love.

So I still think there's no official Goal that requires only one Keeper with no other conditions. Players could always make one up, but it probably would not balanced. Even the "only this Keeper" Goals are problematic. In her first game of Fluxx, my wife, in the first turn, played the Goal All You Need Is Love. Second turn, our 10-year-old daughter played Love and won! Short game. We laughed and kept playing, switching to the variant where you play once through the deck and whoever collects the most Goals wins. (And my wife learned a lesson in Fluxx tactics.)

 
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