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Subject: Stone Carrier with 0 Stone rss

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Tibs
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During Summer, no stone is added to the stone space(s). So it is possible that there is a Stone space that has no stone, and also hasn't already been taken by a player's family member.

The Stone Carrier occupation says when I use a family member's action to take stone, I get an additional stone or can spend a food to get 2 additional stone. Does this work if you take the Stone action when it has 0 stone on it?
 
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John Earles
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kungfro wrote:
The Stone Carrier occupation says when I use a family member's action to take stone, I get an additional stone or can spend a food to get 2 additional stone. Does this work if you take the Stone action when it has 0 stone on it?


If there is no stone available on the space, you obviously cannot take stone. So no, this doesn't work.
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Nick Short
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Rules interactions in Agricola aren't always very grokable. To get a definitive answer, we'll have to hope they handle this in a future FAQ.

I personally expect that you can place to take 1 (or 2) stone in this situation. The role says "when you use a family member's action to take stone" and they use a different template "when you receive stone from an action space" on other cards. To me, the first looks at what the action space is intended to do, and the second looks at what the action space actually did. Therefore, you would be allowed to take your extra stone.
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John Earles
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bsushort wrote:
Rules interactions in Agricola aren't always very grokable. To get a definitive answer, we'll have to hope they handle this in a future FAQ.

I personally expect that you can place to take 1 (or 2) stone in this situation. The role says "when you use a family member's action to take stone" and they use a different template "when you receive stone from an action space" on other cards. To me, the first looks at what the action space is intended to do, and the second looks at what the action space actually did. Therefore, you would be allowed to take your extra stone.


Take implies that something was obtained as the direct result of an family member action.
Receive implies that something was obtained as the by-product of something happening in the game.

See Doubt about take/receive meaning in a few cards for the discussion.
 
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Tibs
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jearles wrote:
kungfro wrote:
The Stone Carrier occupation says when I use a family member's action to take stone, I get an additional stone or can spend a food to get 2 additional stone. Does this work if you take the Stone action when it has 0 stone on it?


If there is no stone available on the space, you obviously cannot take stone. So no, this doesn't work.

If you consider the Wood Distributor, which allows you to spread the wood off of the Wood space at the start of a round, all of the spaces become equally valid for things that are activated by using an action to take wood. In other words, Just because one of them actually says "wood" as the name of the action shouldn't mean that it is special from the rest; it only accumulates wood in a round. So I would have to agree with you on this.

So in my understanding, a Stone action space with 0 stone is no different than a Reed action space with 0 stone, or a Plow action space with 0 stone. You can't activate the Stone Carrier if there is no stone there to carry. All the Stone action space does is accumulate stone, while the other spaces I mentioned do not.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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You are NEVER allowed to use an action space if you can't perform the action. A resource field without resources cannot be taken as there is nothing to take. No card can change this.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Ponton wrote:
You are NEVER allowed to use an action space if you can't perform the action. A resource field without resources cannot be taken as there is nothing to take. No card can change this.

The majority opinion over at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2830389 disagrees.
 
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Jason Sallay
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IMHO - the esmaple you mention Pijll is not vaild in this case, because there is still an action someone could have taken from that space, even if they didnt collect wood.

In the OP's example.

I would say that the general rule is, if you cant do anything you cant place. If you can do something, you can place.

So in the case of the stone carrier - then no, you cant place.

However if there was another option...
Made up card example: When you place a family member on a Take stone action - Get 2 wood
In this case I think you could place the a family memeber on the take stone, as you would get two wood. but because you are not taking stone, the stone carrier does not trigger.
 
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I can just ask Uwe, but I'm pretty sure his answer will be the same as mine. His intention is you can't take an action without performing it. So, neither would you be allowed to take the stone action with no stone on it nor would you be allowed to take the wood action with no wood on it just to build your fences. The cards are clear: you first need to take the appropriate action and you don't in both cases.

But I'll ask.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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FoxmanFX wrote:
I would say that the general rule is, if you cant do anything you cant place. If you can do something, you can place.

That's not the general rule. There is one rule for "and/or" spaces, and another for "after/also" spaces.

The way the Fence Builder is formulated, it creates an "after/also" space: "If you use an action on this action space, you can also...". So you have to be able to use a regular action to build fences.

Ponton wrote:
I can just ask Uwe, but I'm pretty sure his answer will be the same as mine. His intention is you can't take an action without performing it.

I just looked it up in the rulebook, and suprise: that is not what it actually says. In the description of the action spaces, page 8 (1st edition), it says:

"For all action spaces with a white arrow, ... (description of these spaces)
"For all following action spaces is the basic rule, that a player can't use them without performing an action. ... (list of other actions follows)"

So for spaces with a white arrow, the action is not obligatory.

But I'm looking forward to Uwe's ruling. Thank you for asking.
 
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Yeah, now that I've thought a little more about that point one might say, you're taking 0 resources with that action and therefore actually performing an action (although it gains nothing by itself), but I'm very curious what Uwe has to say on this. He hasn't answered, yet.
 
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Nick Short
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Ponton wrote:
Yeah, now that I've thought a little more about that point one might say, you're taking 0 resources with that action and therefore actually performing an action (although it gains nothing by itself), but I'm very curious what Uwe has to say on this. He hasn't answered, yet.

I've had situations where (due to the Guest improvement) someone was forced to place a family member on an empty resource space, as that was the only option remaining for him. If you cannot place on such a space, does he just not get to place that family member?
 
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Uwe's answer in German:

Quote:
0 Waren nehmen ist keine Aktion. Stimmt.


Translated to English:

Quote:
To take 0 goods is no action. Right.


So, I was right: if there are no goods to take on an action field (regardless why this happened), you may NOT take this action as it doesn't count as one.


@Nick: As far as I know this never can happen. There are far more action spaces than there can ever be family members and guests in play.
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Ponton wrote:
@Nick: As far as I know this never can happen. There are far more action spaces than there can ever be family members and guests in play.

Except many of those actions spaces cannot be taken if the player does not have the prerequisites (e.g., if no wood, no fencing or building or free family growth; if no reed, no renovating; if no room, no family growth; if winter phase, no fishing, and possibly no reeds or clay. It's possible to play lover and have the guest card played twice in the previous round so that there's a shortage of viable action spaces.
 
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Ponton wrote:
Uwe's answer in German:

Quote:
0 Waren nehmen ist keine Aktion. Stimmt.


Translated to English:

Quote:
To take 0 goods is no action. Right.


So, I was right: if there are no goods to take on an action field (regardless why this happened), you may NOT take this action as it doesn't count as one.


@Nick: As far as I know this never can happen. There are far more action spaces than there can ever be family members and guests in play.


I love anything where you get an answer from the actual creator!
You can't argue with the validity of an answer from the guy who designed the game.
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