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Subject: Why are files only worth 1GG? rss

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I've uploaded various files over the years, and I've seen the reward for doing so drop from 3GG to 1GG. I'm OK with that, and I've always known that was the reward before ever submitting a file. Lately, though, I've started wondering if it's enough to give folks the incentive to upload files.

I've done some work on some tuckboxes recently, and in at least one case, it took me a total of about 10 hours to create all the different boxes. I realize that I didn't have to create all of them, and I further realize that it's something I created for my own use, but 1GG seems like very little compared to the time it took to create the file.

Can someone give me an explanation as to why the value of files has dropped over the years?
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it says 1 GG, but for my Space Alert files I received 3 ^_^
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I have no idea. I've uploaded 70 files so far and what I've found is if the game is very popular then your GG reward will be much better. When I do files for obscure games I get 1 or 2 GG generally. Heck my last file which took me hours and hours of layout time got me a whopping 2 GG!! The image of said file took me 10 min and got me 1 GG plus someone tipped me so I got the same reward for A LOT less time.

It's frustrating. Files almost always take way longer then images but you certainly don't get the same reward. Of course when I did a bunch of files for Agricola I got rewarded handsomely from both the admin and BGG members.

So it seems there are two lessons here. Don't do files for GG, do images. And if you want better rewards from files only do them for Hot Games!

Faerun wrote:
it says 1 GG, but for my Space Alert files I received 3 ^_^

Oh, and here is an example of better reward for a Hot Game!
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It's pretty much up to the modder how much GG you get; generally from 1 to 5 GG. When I'm modding, I try to take into account how many hours I think went into the file as well as the file's overall usefulness.

As you can imagine, it's not a very exact science and can vary depending on who is doing the file modding.
 
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
It's pretty much up to the modder how much GG you get; generally from 1 to 5 GG. When I'm modding, I try to take into account how many hours I think went into the file as well as the file's overall usefulness.

As you can imagine, it's not a very exact science and can vary depending on who is doing the file modding.

That's the problem as I see it. 1-5 GG isn't much for some files when you take into account the time invested. Unless some file is so trivial that someone didn't spend any time on it then maybe 1GG would be an accurate reward. But anything that takes a decent amount of time should get a minimum of 3GG. And some files that are heavy custom work should be able to get 5 or more GG. You should reward people that spend hours, days, weeks on files so they want to continue doing this amazing work.

I've seen some amazing ref card work for games that desperately need it. Those people should be rewarded handsomely for that work. If a publisher can't or won't add badly needed ref cards then those that do them are doing the game and BGG a very big service.

I consider files some of the most useful things on BGG but they are treated more like a red headed stepchild compared to other parts of the site. If you were investing your own GG as a reward I can see why you would be so reluctant to give better rewards, but these are system generated GG so I don't see why being so stingy is a good thing.
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I had expected that acknowledgment of the work put in making the file would come from the users, that are downloading and using the file, more than from the admins.

But when I have a look to my account, I got much more thumbs/GG for the pictures than for the files, which took a lot more effort to make... I have gone through the files and some have been downloaded more than 400 times (!!!) without a single thumb... nor a comment saying "your file is crap", so I guess that at least a few users could have find it useful...

I don't think I'll stop uploading files (I keep doing them for me, with some exceptions requested by friendly users), but I'm considering going through my files with 0 thumbs/GG/comments and plenty of downloads and deleting them from the data base, after all people don't seem to care about them.


EDIT: After consideration I won't delete them, see below!
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
It's pretty much up to the modder how much GG you get; generally from 1 to 5 GG. When I'm modding, I try to take into account how many hours I think went into the file as well as the file's overall usefulness.

As you can imagine, it's not a very exact science and can vary depending on who is doing the file modding.


I think the problem is the anchoring of the spread. 1 - 5 implies a perfect file, the best file of all time should be a 5. So no one gets a 5. Meanwhile an average file should earn 2.5 . If files were set to earn rewards of 5 - 15gg each, the reward would be much more fair, because even a modestly useful file is worth 5x what a photo brings in.

I feel the same way about reviews and session reports. My own scoring of reviews and sessions is:
0: Nonsensical review/session
3: OK review/session
4: Decent review/session
5: Good review/session (with a goal that 1/2 of all reviews and sessions score a 5.)
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franchi wrote:
I don't think I'll stop uploading files (I keep doing them for me, with some exceptions requested by friendly users), but I'm considering going through my files with 0 thumbs/GG/comments and plenty of downloads and deleting them from the data base, after all people don't seem to care about them.

I do a lot of work improving and adding content to the BGG wiki, which earns NO GG and doesn't even have system support for earning GG. Should I just go through and delete all my wiki edits? "After all people don't seem to care about them."

Our goal is helping make the site better and improving the support for our boardgaming hobby... isn't it?

Or is the goal to collect little pictures of green thumbs and gold coins?

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russ wrote:
Or is the goal to collect little pictures of green thumbs and gold coins?

Hi Russ, sorry if I gave that impression, I wrote that last night and I didn't mean it.

Indeed I don't even talk about GG, I got my avatar long ago and I only use it to tip other users for their contributions. It's just that when I went back and checked some of my first files, I found for example those two: Hellas.pdf and DeluxeUpgrade_SP.pdf.

The first one is a translation of all the cards to Spanish keeping the original format (the game is not available in Spanish), and the second is a translation of the cards, summary and stands plus all the deluxe additions, all in Spanish (again, Spanish version not available). They have been downloaded 464 and 341 times and their pages are empty.

I wouldn't mind that posting comments or thumbing were not allowed on file pages, and I was not looking for a massive response, but for example the equivalent French translation of the second (and the game IS available in French) got 2 thumbs. At least I know that 2 people found it of some use.

I like to "say" in some way that I enjoyed the file to the creator, thumbs are free. But maybe the majority of BGG users come here just to get what they need and they don't care much about the site or the time spent behind contributions.

I hope I made my point clearer, I just expected that less than 1% of downloaders would leave a minimum feedback (since BGG has formatted the file pages for that), and of course I won't delete my 0 thumb files!


PS: I remember a comment to another user's file, tuck boxes for Pandemic, saying "they are too big"... which was not even true (the boxes were fine)! I would prefer at least such a comment, if people are not finding the file useful I would like to know why, it could be corrected. So you see, when hundreds of users download I'm only looking for feedback, not necessarily positive.

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franchi wrote:
russ wrote:
Or is the goal to collect little pictures of green thumbs and gold coins?

Hi Russ, sorry if I gave that impression, I wrote that last night and I didn't mean it.

OK, cool. There have just been so many users who really do get angry or offended about something at BGG and "take their ball and go home", vindictively deleting their content, that I wasn't sure if you were serious or not.

Glad to hear it wasn't a serious intention.
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I think the thing to remember is we don't do this for GG or thumbs otherwise we'd never do files ever again! But its nice to get a reward and a few thumbs & comments so we know people are using & enjoying our work. I just feel with the admins being so stingy on GG rewards that they are driving people away from making files. Those that have talent in that area and are new enough to want to buy avatars, ubergeekbadges, microbadges, etc. should be awarded for their effort based on the work.

If the admins don't do some changes they will drive some of these people away when they realize image uploads is the only way to generate GG income fast. And that's all we need is more pictures of cats, cute kids, and every angle of every miniature ever released for a game!
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franchi wrote:
But when I have a look to my account, I got much more thumbs/GG for the pictures than for the files, which took a lot more effort to make...
Not entirely surprising when you consider the different effort involved. It takes only a moment for a viewer to examine an image; much longer to examine a file. Different traffic levels.

franchi wrote:
I have gone through the files and some have been downloaded more than 400 times (!!!) without a single thumb...
Trouble is that even bad files must first be downloaded in order to examine them. There is no corollary method to compare rate of image viewing to thumbs.

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The other difference between pictures and files is that you watch the former and you use the latter, that's why I said that maybe there are more people than I had expected that see BGG only as a drawer where you serve yourself.

Me too I have downloaded files that didn't correspond well to my expectations when I read the description. The Hellas file I mentioned above, however, is the cards of the game formatted as the originals and in Spanish. I guess that someone downloading it is looking exactly for that, he has the game in German/English and wants the cards in Spanish (not available). Then he finds not only the Spanish text, but the whole card. Do they find my translation wrong? No way to know...

But as others have said before, sometimes you download the file and close the window, and then you forget to come back to the page. I suggested once some kind of automatic geek-mail, a week after your download, asking you to rate the file (like on Ebay, Amazon, etc), it could help the authors improving their techniques but mostly other users before downloading the file...
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I confess to be one of the downloaders of the mentioned Hellas.pdf file. And yes, I did not thumb it nor tipped it. Do I feel embarrassed? Yes blush. Do I have an explanation for my behaviour? YES.

The point is the following. When you read a post, geeklist, view an image, etc., the thumbing/tipping buttons are right there. It costs you nothing to thumb a post and say "I liked it" or "I agree". BUT, on a game's page, you can see the names of the files with a small description about them, press you mouse's right button and "Save file as"... without needing to enter the file page. So, no thumbs, no tips, and no comments are done.

This explanation is not meant as an excuse, but just as a fact. I have uploaded 5 files up to now, three of them massive translations from Spanish to English of the game El Capitán Alatriste (134, 152 and 136 downloads each). Comments? Zero. Thumbs? Nil. Tips? $0. So I've suffered the same situation.

I would suggest some easier way to thumb/tip/comment files in order to avoid this situation.

Just my embarrassed 2 cents.
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Gracias Nicolas, at least one feedback for this file!

nvarela wrote:
on a game's page, you can see the names of the files with a small description about them, press you mouse's right button and "Save file as"... without needing to enter the file page.

Yes, I had not thought about that, this added option is definitely not helping people to give feedback...

Admins should think about either forcing to go through the file page, either allowing thumbs already from the game page, just besides the file name... Or the automatic request one week later I suggested above...
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ScottE wrote:
I think the thing to remember is we don't do this for GG or thumbs otherwise we'd never do files ever again! But its nice to get a reward and a few thumbs & comments so we know people are using & enjoying our work.


Right, exactly. I don't even think about creating a file unless it has some intrinsic value to me, first and foremost. Uploading the file later is an afterthought, an, "Oh, maybe someone else can use this, too!" way of thinking. I've never thought to create a file strictly for other users, namely because if I don't have a copy of the game in front of me, then I don't have the information necessary to create the file.

This is partly why I feel weird asking about the GG reward. The usefulness of the file is what led me to create it, not the rewards for doing so. It would just be nice if the relative time put into creating said content was somehow reflected in the reward system. My images earn me as much GG as my files, and take me about 1/25th of the time to create.
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You know what I miss Isaac?

The list that gave you "most wanted" stuff and the larger rewards for doing so....been a LONG time since that was around. I'm sure it's lost forever.
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franchi wrote:
I had expected that acknowledgment of the work put in making the file would come from the users, that are downloading and using the file, more than from the admins.


I agree with this. Any file that I print and use gets a from me, but I know that there are not many other tippers. I've seen files that have been downloaded more than 1,000 times and the total earned is less than two, and I put in one!
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A couple thoughts from a file moderator as well as file submitter:

- Personally I would like to see some upgrade on the files interface. I would love to see:
* Automatic photo previews of every file from the server (easier to review! Easier to tip/thumb!)
* Ability to group files that belong together
* Ability to sort files by type (Translation, Player Aid, Scenario, etc.)
* Ability for the server to automatically check submitted files for viruses and malware before we have to review them so we could just review them based on the automatic photo of the file sometimes (The auto photo would also check for corruption.)

- As a file submitter, I would love to see the GG rewards jump to the 3-10 range to be more in line with the work involved. As a reviewer, I would hate to see that. It got to the point where I could not keep up, and Dale puts in a huge effort to keep the files reviewed. I don't think we can take much more volume. Perhaps file photos would allow for user moderation to some extent? (Along with the headaches that user Image moderation has created though.)
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I think most files are definitely worth more than 1GG--but that's just my two cents

The subject of thumbing files is pretty disturbing--in that--the thumbing ratio is abysmal.

This has been an ongoing discussion and a few of us briefly took up the subject back in March. For those who are interested in the discussion (which game out of a conversation about how to increase your thumbing stats--those that you give out, not that you receive)....

donkst wrote:

I personally think that some of the best contributions on BGG come in the form of game files. I know these issues have been discussed recently in the following threads, among others http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/297280 and http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/28948 , but I'm still amazed by the statistics related to the use of a file versus its thumbed ratio. Some blame the low thumbing of files on the fact that once you've downloaded the file you can't simply give it a thumb without reopening the info page about the file. If people really think that a file is useful and an important contribution, then is it really that difficult to take less than 5 seconds to back up and thumb the file? Granted these files often receive a solid amount of GG from a few users of the files, but the "use/thumb" ratio is pathetic.

Just as a quick experiment, I looked at the file sections of the top three games, and then looked at the single file of each game that received the most thumbs, and this is what the "use/thumb" ratio revealed.

For Puerto Rico user "Gord" has received only 44 thumbs for his file, even though it has been downloaded 9183 times.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/11973

For Power Grid user "zefquaavius" has received only 60 thumbs for his file, even though it has been downloaded 2338 times.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/13186

and for Twilight Struggle user "Rulemonger" has received only 32 thumbs for his file, even though it has been downloaded 1058 times.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/file/info/16990



and

donkst wrote:

emonika wrote:
Thumbing file submissions turns out to be tougher than I thought. shake .........

How do *you* increase your file thumbing quota?


When you go to the "Files" section of a game, you will see there are two blue highlighted links for each entry. The one on the left side will take you to a screen where you can download the file (at the bottom) and perhaps, more importantly, "Recommend" the file (i.e. there is a Thumbs button). If you download the file first from this screen, all you have to do is hit the back button to get back to the recommend button and that's all there is to it.

If you go directly to the right highlighted link of a file, which automatically downloads the file, again, all you have to do is hit the back button, which brings you back to the file section, and then just hit the left link button and recommend.


emonika wrote:
A lot of files are for games I have never even heard of. Judging the quality of this additional material is almost impossible.


I don't know, while the usefulness of some files may elude someone because they have not played the game, other files, particularly graphic oriented files (i.e. screens, tuckboxes, scorecards, etc.) really stand out. It's obvious that some of the creators put a lot of work into them and definately seem deserving of a thumb, at least IMHO.

edit: fixed typo


These partial quotes came from the following threads...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/297280

and

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/297783
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Solamar wrote:
A couple thoughts from a file moderator as well as file submitter:

- Personally I would like to see some upgrade on the files interface. I would love to see:
* Automatic photo previews of every file from the server (easier to review! Easier to tip/thumb!)
* Ability to group files that belong together
* Ability to sort files by type (Translation, Player Aid, Scenario, etc.)
* Ability for the server to automatically check submitted files for viruses and malware before we have to review them so we could just review them based on the automatic photo of the file sometimes (The auto photo would also check for corruption.)

- As a file submitter, I would love to see the GG rewards jump to the 3-10 range to be more in line with the work involved. As a reviewer, I would hate to see that. It got to the point where I could not keep up, and Dale puts in a huge effort to keep the files reviewed. I don't think we can take much more volume. Perhaps file photos would allow for user moderation to some extent? (Along with the headaches that user Image moderation has created though.)

Those features would all be wonderful. But also a better way to thumb on the main list. But I prefer you NEVER allow downloading from the main list, only on the file page. The reason for this is sometimes I put comments on the page and most users never see them since they download directly from the main list link. So add thumb button on main file page but remove ability to download from there would both help thumbing and force people to see any comments.

Also, I don't think raising the GG amount would raise the file upload significately. File making takes far more effort then images. Any Joe with a camera can take a picture. Not many can work in Photoshop, or translate, or work with PDF files. By their nature files are always more effort so raising the GG would only reward those that do it. Look at how many users have the "File Uploader" microbadges and compare to the "Image Uploader" microbadges. As you can see there are FAR more image uploaders.

Currently there are 5 pages of "Golden Image Uploaders" while there are a total of only 11 "Golden File Uploaders". And see the numbers for silver and gold. Big, big difference.
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
It's pretty much up to the modder how much GG you get; generally from 1 to 5 GG. When I'm modding, I try to take into account how many hours I think went into the file as well as the file's overall usefulness.

As you can imagine, it's not a very exact science and can vary depending on who is doing the file modding.


I do wish there was some way to tell the modder how much time went into your work--a high quality anything doesn't always show that. While I don't do files much, I do write reviews and session reports, and sometimes I've spent 5-8 hours (divided over the course of several evenings) uploading images, writing and revising the reviews and reports, linking to my photos, and then get a whopping 3.077 GG or whatever for my trouble. Certainly better than 1, for sure, but maybe modders ought to know? Or perhaps they ought to also be people who design and submit work like that on a regular basis?

Just thinking "out loud."

Chris
 
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franchi wrote:
russ wrote:
Or is the goal to collect little pictures of green thumbs and gold coins?

Hi Russ, sorry if I gave that impression, I wrote that last night and I didn't mean it.

Indeed I don't even talk about GG, I got my avatar long ago and I only use it to tip other users for their contributions. It's just that when I went back and checked some of my first files, I found for example those two: Hellas.pdf and DeluxeUpgrade_SP.pdf.

The first one is a translation of all the cards to Spanish keeping the original format (the game is not available in Spanish), and the second is a translation of the cards, summary and stands plus all the deluxe additions, all in Spanish (again, Spanish version not available). They have been downloaded 464 and 341 times and their pages are empty.


To all designers of downloadable content:

Thank you. I have been downloading and using your user-made content for over a year, now, and I never, ever, left a thumb or comment. I will do so in the future.

It simply never occurred to me--I occurs to me to do it for threads, comments, reviews, and session reports, but never, ever, for pics or file downloads. I will do so, now.

Help raise awareness about this! It really, honestly, just never occurred to me before... and I'm sure this is true for lots of others.

Apologies, thanks, and keep creating!

Chris
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cmontgo2 wrote:
I do wish there was some way to tell the modder how much time went into your work--a high quality anything doesn't always show that.

Chris,

I don't think it is a question of time spent, the files that took me the most time were the two tracks of the original Ave Caesar, and it was not hours, it was days... But I made them for me, and I like designing things with my computer, so I was not expecting them to be more rewarded than my other files. And sometimes a file is quickly made but it is very very useful.

No one is searching for a proportionality between effort/quality and thumb/GG/comment, we just find weird having file pages showing hundreds of downloads and not a single, minimal user reaction. But as you said, it is not easy, and I think the Admins have already some good ideas here to work on in order to improve the file system.
 
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Joe Huber

Westborough
Massachusetts
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ScottE wrote:
I've found is if the game is very popular then your GG reward will be much better. When I do files for obscure games I get 1 or 2 GG generally.


I must state - I haven't found that to be true, at all. The only files I upload are for obscure games - usually translations, but sometimes other data I think would be useful. My last upload was the speech cards for the 1935 edition of Oswald B. Lord's Game of Politics, an obscure edition of an obscure game, but based upon my comments on the game someone was interested (presumably to create their own to go with the 1950s edition), so I put the data (along with some additional analysis around the value of the cards, mostly to satisfy my own curiousity) into an Excel file and loaded it. I received 4 for this, in spite of the obscurity.

I think files are the most likely items to be valued in spite of obscurity, because a single admin makes the decision; the popularity vote aspect is taken out. Well, OK, minimized; putting together a really good file for a game the admin in question cares about probably helps...
 
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