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Subject: Can you keep buying Lair cards til you have one you like? rss

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Tommy Dean
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I know you can only have one Lair at a time...and i know it says "if you get another lair card discard one" but as there are other cards which will give you a lair card I was wondering if it is acceptable to keep buying lair cards til you get one you like.

My guess is yes...which seems a little gamey to have people cycling the deck when the cost is 1 to get a lair closer to them.

Thoughts?
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Anders Kernel
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Yes I believe you can buy as many lair cards as you wish, paying the cost each time (AToE Rulebook pg. 13).

A good idea if you have the Investigation for it, but not a situation which has come to be in our games.

"They are... Everywhere!"

Cheerio,
A
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FC Wesel
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I would say yes, but only 1 Lair could be purchased per turn.
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Douglas S
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FCWesel wrote:
I would say yes, but only 1 Lair could be purchased per turn.


Agreed, or perhaps 2 per turn, max.
 
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Frank Conradie
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SovTech wrote:
Yes I believe you can buy as many lair cards as you wish, paying the cost each time (AToE Rulebook pg. 13).

A good idea if you have the Investigation for it, but not a situation which has come to be in our games.

"They are... Everywhere!"

Cheerio,
A


You're kidding, right? Ever had the one that says "all dead elders immediately join the villain" when there's 5 dead elders?
 
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Anders Kernel
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Hmm...

What I meant to say is that we have bought other lair cards than just the first, but not cycled through the deck to get to one that is near where we stand. Avoiding the lair card of the living dead evil elders, could be a good reason!

I believe the rules are very clear on the area of buying lair cards that you can only have one, but you can buy as many as you want. I will stick to the rules unless it becomes a problem. Then I would suggest that you could only buy 1 lair card per round...

Cheerio,
A
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Rich Moore
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Wow, you really can redraw a Lair card if you don't like the text? I'll have to re-read the rules, but sounds a bit too powerful. Especially for a game that many complain is too easy (at least in coop).

 
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Gilles Duchesne
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rcmoore4 wrote:
Wow, you really can redraw a Lair card if you don't like the text?

Well, you pay the investigation cost on every single card, obviously.

But the rules say that as an action, you can pay the cost to draw a Lair card. If you already had a card, you pick the one you keep.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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rcmoore4 wrote:
Wow, you really can redraw a Lair card if you don't like the text? I'll have to re-read the rules, but sounds a bit too powerful. Especially for a game that many complain is too easy (at least in coop).



It seems like a very poor use of investigation tokens to buy a bunch of Lair cards, considering a better Lair that will make the final Showdown easier for you is unlikely, and you could just use that investigation to buy other things to prepare you for the showdown instead.

I see it as something you do when you just get very unlucky with the first draw. The lair card that turns dead elders into evil elders can be nasty, or perhaps you just drew a location that is blocked off by a bunch of minions. Fighting through them is time consuming and leaves you less prepared for the final showdown.
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I see it as a very good use of Investigation (as a matter of fact - decisive use) in a situation like this: you know, that you won't get another shot at the Showdown, that if you end your turn now, someone else will go and kill the bastard before your turn comes again. Yet, you cannot reach the Lair this move. You have a bunch of Investigation, so you keep buying Lairs (they probably cost 1 Inv by this time) in hope you'll get the one located on the very spot you're in.

And then... Showdown. It seems a very clever move, though I don't like it in terms of roleplaying part of the game.
 
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Chris X.
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Quote:
And then... Showdown. It seems a very clever move, though I don't like it in terms of roleplaying part of the game.

It is a clever move and the roleplaying aspect of it would be that you use your accumulated knowledge of the monster (investigation), to lure it out of his actual lair and fight it in better grounds.
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Shoosh shoo
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There is a point I want to raise pertaining to lair cards and starting a showdown. This has not yet happened to me but in the event that I happen to move somewhere, encounter the space, then go through all my other actions, THEN I buy a lair card and it happens to be for the same space I'm in, the next action I can take (as written on the turn summary cards in th game) says I can start a showdown. I don't think this would be fair.

The rulebook says that if you decide to move to a location to start a showdown you DO NOT encounter the space. In the above scenario I would have already encountered the space and gone through my whole turn, and then began the showdown. Personally I would rule that you would have to wait till your next turn to start a showdown since you've already encountered the space you're in.

On your next turn then you would have to Linger (because you will want to stay in the same space to start your showdown), resolve the roll of the dice (you get attacked or you remain safe), THEN instead of encountering the space you declare a showdown.

This logically makes sense too because let's say in real life situation you're looking for a monster (LOL "real life") and the lair was the space you were in but you didn't know it yet...so you're searching around for clues and you're getting warmer. You would 'linger' in the area because you're examining all these cllues and signs more closely and there would be a very strong chance that a minion would attack you since they are bound to be hanging around the villain's lair.
 
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VonMeister
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LoneCleric wrote:
rcmoore4 wrote:
Wow, you really can redraw a Lair card if you don't like the text?

Well, you pay the investigation cost on every single card, obviously.

But the rules say that as an action, you can pay the cost to draw a Lair card. If you already had a card, you pick the one you keep.


Well, if you take the rules literally, you couldn't buy another Lair card because you already have one. There are some instances in the game where your Lair card is blocked and discarded (A Mystery card, I think) when you try to play it.
If you were to pay for and draw another Lair card, then for a moment you would have two and the rules state that you may only have one. That may seem really nitpicky, but that's how we're playing it. "Multiple choice" Lairs just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game (so to speak) since it's the creature that is supposed to be determining where the Lair is, not the character.
Just my thoughts on the issue.
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VonMeister
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jupitertux wrote:
Quote:
And then... Showdown. It seems a very clever move, though I don't like it in terms of roleplaying part of the game.

It is a clever move and the roleplaying aspect of it would be that you use your accumulated knowledge of the monster (investigation), to lure it out of his actual lair and fight it in better grounds.


This is quite a good point. Might I submit that your further investigation may have yielded a negative result and you were led astray by bad information. The roleplaying translation might be that you can indeed buy another Lair card if you already have one, but you have to take what you buy and can continue to do so until you get a better one. You just wouldn't have the ability to choose between two Lairs.
 
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Joel Bartenbach
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VonMeister wrote:
Well, if you take the rules literally, you couldn't buy another Lair card because you already have one. There are some instances in the game where your Lair card is blocked and discarded (A Mystery card, I think) when you try to play it.
If you were to pay for and draw another Lair card, then for a moment you would have two and the rules state that you may only have one. That may seem really nitpicky, but that's how we're playing it. "Multiple choice" Lairs just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the game (so to speak) since it's the creature that is supposed to be determining where the Lair is, not the character.
Just my thoughts on the issue.


I totally agree 100%. The rulebook isn't well written but it makes sense to me that you can only have 1 Lair card and that if you get (not buy) another Lair card you have to pick between the two. If you can just cherry pick your Lair what is the point of having the difficult Lairs in the deck? It just isn't logical to have the luxury of cycling through and breaks the spirit and theme of the game. My opinion that is.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Trying to apply theme over rules is a bad idea, but if you must.... You'll notice that each hero can have their own lair card, so if you want to talk theme, you're a party of hunters with some choice of where you're going to engage the villain. Once you accept that idea, then getting a different lair card is no problem.

"I say we tackle the villain by the Covered Bridge."
"I was thinking the Abandoned Keep is a better idea. We can ambush the creature when it comes out at night."
"On second though, maybe I'll skip the Covered Bridge and suggest the Manor instead. We can use Lord Hanbrook as bait."
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Chuck Hurd
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Autoduelist wrote:
Trying to apply theme over rules is a bad idea, but if you must.... You'll notice that each hero can have their own lair card, so if you want to talk theme, you're a party of hunters with some choice of where you're going to engage the villain. Once you accept that idea, then getting a different lair card is no problem.

"I say we tackle the villain by the Covered Bridge."
"I was thinking the Abandoned Keep is a better idea. We can ambush the creature when it comes out at night."
"On second though, maybe I'll skip the Covered Bridge and suggest the Manor instead. We can use Lord Hanbrook as bait."

They each get to have a Lair card only in Competitive play. In Co-op it is one Lair card for the group, commonly owned.

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Joel Bartenbach
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Carcking wrote:
They each get to have a Lair card only in Competitive play. In Co-op it is one Lair card for the group, commonly owned.


Exactly with co-op, just one Lair. In regards to competitive, having multiple Lair cards to me represents different investigators collecting different knowledge, and each having their own ideas on where the Lair is. If you defeated the villain at the Covered Bridge and my Lair was the Windmill, I would look at it as a failed investigation on my part and that my thoughts on the Lair was wrong. If you don't defeat the villain obviously he has moved and I have an idea of where that might be.

I pulled a nasty Lair card today (co-op) which is what made me think of it. And I just thought, what is the point of these if I can just easily pay for another? They are only 3 investigation and my soldier has piled up his investigation in hunting down minions. I could cherry pick anything I wanted really. Just seems it's too easy and takes away from the theme.

Remember, the Rulebook doesn't say you can "buy" another Lair card, only that you can only have one and if you were to "get" another that you discard one of them.
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Neil Edmonds
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There's a bunch of hunters with pointy objects running around. Who's to say the villain doesn't move their lair? Perhaps the investigation tokens led you to an old location where the villain was hunkered down...

Buying a new lair card with investigation tokens represents additional leg-work to find where the villain moved to, or perhaps represents a cunning trap to lure the villain out.

[edits to replace "clues" with "investigation".]
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Neil Edmonds
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Speaking of the rule, you do get to choose:

"Hereos are limited to one Lair Card at a time. If you already have a Lair Card and you get another, you must immediately choose one to keep and discard the other. (pg 13)"

Then there's the aforementioned, one global Lair card for co-op play, but you still get to choose which one to keep.
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Joel Bartenbach
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Autoduelist wrote:
Speaking of the rule, you do get to choose:

"Hereos are limited to one Lair Card at a time. If you already have a Lair Card and you get another, you must immediately choose one to keep and discard the other. (pg 13)"

Then there's the aforementioned, one global Lair card for co-op play, but you still get to choose which one to keep.


There are holes in this. The rule states "Buy a Lair", not "Get a Lair". Then says, "Heroes may purchase a layer at the cost of investigation listed..." Then goes on to say as you have quoted in which it says "get" a Lair, not "buy" another Lair. If the intention is to buy another layer the rules would say "buy". "Get", to me at least, implies if you were to get another Lair through an effect of some sort then you must discard one of them.

The rule is vague, but that isn't even my biggest issue with it. Even if you could buy another Lair, it just doesn't work thematically. The action is not listed as limited to one per turn. If one had enough investigation tokens, then those in the pro-buy camp could purchase a Lair and think, "nope, don't like it." Then they could buy another and think, "nope, don't like that one either." As long as they had the tokens they could keep doing this until they get a Lair that satisfies them. And that's a problem for me. Who the f are we to have a say in the villains Lair!? Or the rules in which the villain's Lair goes by? Thematically you discover the Lair whether you like the Lair or not. The villain calls those shots, not the investigators.

But hey, to each their own
 
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Chuck Hurd
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babyjimbrofski wrote:
Remember, the Rulebook doesn't say you can "buy" another Lair card, only that you can only have one and if you were to "get" another that you discard one of them.

What allows you to continue buying Lair cards even if you own one is the list of available actions for the Hero on his turn, that he can perform multiple times in a turn. There is nothing that specifically limits how many Lair cards you can buy on a turn.

But I like your idea as a house rule. It's a great house rule that will make the game a little more challenging. If you draw an unfavorable lair card you will have to deal with it. It may or may not give the Villain an advantage and it may be a challenge just to get there.
 
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Joel Bartenbach
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I would love to hear Jason's intention in regards to Lairs. I can see it both ways really. If the intention is to buy at will I think I'll stick to the house rule
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Neil Edmonds
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You're free to do as you wish as far as house rules, but I disagree with your rules interpretation regarding lairs:

Pg. 5 says "Lair Cards represent a location where you can find the Villain to start a Showdown."

Finding the villain is not the same thing as "living" there. You can find the villain by baiting a trap, realizing the villain might strike at that location next, etc.

Many of the villains in the game used to be human (vampires, ghosts, werewolves) and human beings are capable of owning more than one residence (lair) or residing in temporary shelters (hotels, RVs, automobiles) so even the logic of "villains can only have one lair (because that's where they live)" doesn't hold muster.

Pg. 7 says "Investigation is the currency of the game. It represents information that the Hero has collected on their hunt for the Villain as
well as the willingness of the townspeople to trust the Hero and help them out."

So if the complaint is that investigation is being used to "buy" lair cards, couldn't the Lair card simply be a someone crying out for help or any angry mob cornering the villain long enough for the heroes to confront the enemy? Maybe the only reason heroes "spend" investigation to find lair cards is that represents the townspeople general knowledge of the hero's activities (ie - the hero is someone skilled enough to handle the villain and seeking them out when trouble occurs is a good idea.)



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Joel Bartenbach
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Autoduelist wrote:
You're free to do as you wish as far as house rules, but I disagree with your rules interpretation regarding lairs:

Pg. 5 says "Lair Cards represent a location where you can find the Villain to start a Showdown."

Finding the villain is not the same thing as "living" there. You can find the villain by baiting a trap, realizing the villain might strike at that location next, etc.

Many of the villains in the game used to be human (vampires, ghosts, werewolves) and human beings are capable of owning more than one residence (lair) or residing in temporary shelters (hotels, RVs, automobiles) so even the logic of "villains can only have one lair (because that's where they live)" doesn't hold muster.

Pg. 7 says "Investigation is the currency of the game. It represents information that the Hero has collected on their hunt for the Villain as
well as the willingness of the townspeople to trust the Hero and help them out."

So if the complaint is that investigation is being used to "buy" lair cards, couldn't the Lair card simply be a someone crying out for help or any angry mob cornering the villain long enough for the heroes to confront the enemy? Maybe the only reason heroes "spend" investigation to find lair cards is that represents the townspeople general knowledge of the hero's activities (ie - the hero is someone skilled enough to handle the villain and seeking them out when trouble occurs is a good idea.)






lair.
NOUN
1.a wild animal's resting place, especially one that is well hidden.

The luxury to keep changing this for convenience just seems to go against the theme of the game and the definition of lair. I don't think the rulebook is 100% clear on this mechanic. And I'll ask again, what is the point of having the more challenging lair cards if you can just keep changing it? It's like playing Arkham Horror but drawing the Mythos until you get a gate location that is convenient for you. Just seems weak to me.

But as I said, to each their own. I'm heading to fight the horseman, his lair being the Covered Bridge and he'll fight 4+ in the first round. I don't like it, but I'm not supposed to like it. It's his lair, not mine.

Cheers friend
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