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Subject: A few negative points rss

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I've played this game a few times and i really want to like it, but up to now, i don't understand the remarkably high rating here on BBG.

Here 2 of the points i most dislike about this game (there are more):

1.) What about dogfighting?

There are three pilots in this game, but most of the time it is not necessary to go out to space to wrack some cylons, because...

You are able to jump before it gets too dangerous for your civ-ships

It is far more effective to bring some civ-ships out of range, than to combat the threatening cylons.

More often than not there are no raiders around to get activated (there are many "activate raiders"-Cards around, but very few of them actually bring some of them on the board).

So i've to see some really intense space-fight. The pilots in our games were most of the time not able to use their special fighting abilties... well, they were able, but it wouldn't had made any sense...

In our games the vipers were used as some kind of "ablative"-armour... they just protected the civs with their body... and well, it worked very well...

2.) What about the Cylons?

Once you are revealed, it is pure luck, if you are able to stop the stinking humans from winning. There is no strategy or tactic you can use, just jump around the locations and see if you can get some nice cards (or rolls)... or just not.

Yes, some locations are more able to reduce a special resource than others, but in the end, it is more luck needed than skill...

This was just boring to me.

I would be happy if someone could show me that i was wrong with my opinion as shown above...

But as i see it this is a 7 to me (probably lower after a few more games)...












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Matt Epp
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I've only played a few times so take this with a grain of salt.

1)

Our first game we got hammered with cylon fleets, and the only reason we survived as long as we did is because of our pilot. Pilots are extremely effective at delaying and even quelching cylon fleets.

Combining executive orders with maximum firepower is awesome.

Moving fleets can be just as effective, but not when you've got 2 basestars breating down your neck. Early jumps aren't always a possibility, and neither is taking population hits.

No, this isn't a tactical space combat game, but pilots give your vipers and civilian ships longevity, which I will admit isn't always needed.

I would hate to play a game without a good pilot, but I would be a pilot in space without many cylons around than some 2nd tier diplomat watching the president have all the fun.

But it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

2)

Being a cylon is all about revealing yourself at the right time, that's half the fun right there. Revealed cylons may have a little less fun, but you can sure hammer away at the fleet. It is true that your options are more limited if there is no cylon fleet around, but you also get to assign your card and throw wrenches into skill checks.

All this being said, this game really depends on the players. The psychology of the game is unparalleled in my opinion. My rating has only gone up with more plays.

To each his own.
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Steve Stanton
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Quote:
1.) What about dogfighting?


More often than not there are no raiders around to get activated (there are many "activate raiders"-Cards around, but very few of them actually bring some of them on the board).


If there is at least one cyclon basestar on the board, but without any raiders/heavy raiders on the board, then any "activate raiders" card will launch 2 raiders / 1 heavy raider per basestar, respectively. That could/would keep the board populated as long as there's a basestar. If you don't watch the incoming cylon fleet threat you can be toast.

We cylons won (my first game - 5 players) by having one cylon move another civilian ship into an area having 3 raiders, 1 manned viper and 1 civilian ship. I then moved and and attacked the manned viper destroying it with my 1st raider so that the other 2 raiders each took out a civilian ship. That took the population to zero (the next turn the humans could have made the final jump to win the game).



Quote:
2.) What about the Cylons?

Once you are revealed, it is pure luck, if you are able to stop the stinking humans from winning. There is no strategy or tactic you can use, just jump around the locations and see if you can get some nice cards (or rolls)... or just not.

Yes, some locations are more able to reduce a special resource than others, but in the end, it is more luck needed than skill...


Back to my first game, I revealed as Baltar after the second dealing of loyality cards (giving me 3 and a target on my back) so I could do the 'cylon actions' and allowing the now certain 2nd cylon to sabatoge skill checks. It turns out the 2nd cylon sat to my right as was the President.

Your comments certainly aren't without merit. Try it again to see if your opinions change.
 
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Joe Niezelski
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I agree with both of the OP's points, but I still love the game. I think the positives far outweigh the negatives here.

I think part of the problem for #1 is that scouts and Roslin tend to avoid Cylon attacks for some reason. In my experience, though, you are much more likely to lose from skill checks than from Cylon fleet activity.
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While you're points may be technically correct I think you may be missing the point of the game somewhat (easy enough to do as the point isn't in the rules or mechanics so much as how they interact with one another). While there may not be much dogfighting for pilots to do most of the time the game is not about dogfighting or combat. The game like the show is about paranoia. Shooting down cylons and resolving crises (and generally the crises are more integral to the game than combat) are to a great degree merely the stage for the real game of "who is the traitor among us", that's the real fun. As for the revealed cylon not having many choices I agree to an extent (although other posters have made good points as to the right time to use super crisis cards etc) but the most important part of a cylon player is remaining secret. You shouldn't be a revealed cylon until close to the end of the game, you can generally do far more damage from within that without. As for crises being largely random, they are to the degree of what goes wrong, but not random in the sense that something will go wrong. The card itself isn't important, its how the players resolve it that matters (or namely who looks the most suspicious resolving it). BSG is largely played off the table, the mechanics aren't important, the players are.
 
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Daniel Havránek
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I didnt play yet but i have already ordered the game as soon as i read rules.
Its said i like games with traitor(s) among other player and mechanics of the game are great to help traitor make good damage from secret. I think you as cylon can make far more harm to humans when you are on galactica. Through skill checks. As long as you are revealed you can play only one card and that cant be enough to make the skill check fail...
Choose your strategy ... enjoy secrecy... have fun ;)

Well at the end i have to say: not every game is for everyone. Puerto Rico was the best game by ratings, but i play it once per year at most... nothing for me, its like chess i think. But still this doesnt mean it is bad game for everyone ;)
 
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1. Pilots are the best roles for hidden Cylons.

I say this, because if you are out zooming around, trying to kill raiders and basestars (and failing and ending up in sick bay), then you aren't expected to be on the Galactica doing something important. In fact, the more time you can spend in space as the hidden Cylon, the better.

"Help me repair the ship!" "No frakkin way! I have raiders to destroy! *pew pew pew*" ~ Galactica takes the sixth hit and humans lose because there were not enough people repairing. ~

2. Someone commented (I accidentally forgot their name after purposely memorizing it) that revealing yourself to be a Cylon is the best way to pull heat off the other Cylon. I agree whole-heartedly.

Even if your choices are not as sneaky (which I agree is the fun part about being a Cylon - being sneaky) as before, you are still doing damage to the Fleet. You just robbed them of one helpful person who has to donate at least ONE good card to every check.

Plus, if you can withstand revealing yourself as a Cylon until the very end (that is, play the hidden Cylon well), you won't have to do the other stuff for very long.



 
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Chiuso wrote:
I've played this game a few times and i really want to like it, but up to now, i don't understand the remarkably high rating here on BBG.

Here 2 of the points i most dislike about this game (there are more):

1.) What about dogfighting?

There are three pilots in this game, but most of the time it is not necessary to go out to space to wrack some cylons, because...


Its always necessary to launch. If the Cylons are already present, you are merely late.

Quote:
You are able to jump before it gets too dangerous for your civ-ships


its possible to be overwhelmed before the marker has moved twice on the Jump track.

Quote:
It is far more effective to bring some civ-ships out of range, than to combat the threatening cylons.


Unless 1. you can't move them or 2. raiders approach from both directions

Quote:
More often than not there are no raiders around to get activated (there are many "activate raiders"-Cards around, but very few of them actually bring some of them on the board).


this is never going to be true of a game overall

Quote:
So i've to see some really intense space-fight. The pilots in our games were most of the time not able to use their special fighting abilties... well, they were able, but it wouldn't had made any sense...


play some more. In last nights two games the Cylons attacked fiercely throughout, and so there was never any time for political moves against the president and suchlike. The first game lasted about an hour. In the second, out of four of us it was impossible to tell who the Cylon was, although he turned out to be the pro-Human Sympathizer.

Quote:
In our games the vipers were used as some kind of "ablative"-armour... they just protected the civs with their body... and well, it worked very well...


and if the pilots are inexperienced, this is all they are good for.

Quote:
2.) What about the Cylons?

Once you are revealed, it is pure luck, if you are able to stop the stinking humans from winning. There is no strategy or tactic you can use, just jump around the locations and see if you can get some nice cards (or rolls)... or just not.


there is always the potential for both good and bad play, but you have to be able to distinguish both from good & bad luck, which is not always clear.

Quote:
I would be happy if someone could show me that i was wrong with my opinion as shown above...


There is a very great deal that can happen in the game, of which only a small fraction will occur in a single play. The narrative of individual plays can very considerably. This isn't Imperial or Power Grid.
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I agree with the opposing views here. I've only playd it once so far with a group (I'v done many test plays solo) and it was a blast, even though it was a "learning play" and took a long time.

IMHO it is all about the players ability to take on the game. If you want something more "step one = this, step two = this - winner" this is not the game for you. Yes there were many times people did not know what they should be doing; that is a testiment to the hidden cylon players.

It hits a great balance with with the hidden cylons and revealed cylons. I only see this getting better and better with each play and the player understand th bigger picture better.

My only complaint is they did not include the playboy model / cylon as a character, but I guess if they did it might cause lag at the table. And they probably want her for the expansion pack to ensure that sells.....
 
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Matt Smith
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To your first point, we had two pilots in our last game, a 3-player affair. Only once did either pilot launch himself in a viper. It seemed better to launch two unmanned vipers instead, and use them as "armor", as you put it. That being said, we also had more important things to do on the ship. However, we never felt like we were missing out on a key aspect of the game. Instead, we recognize that piloting a viper is a situational action, and should only be used when necessary. In larger games, I suspect the pilots will feel more free to dogfight.

To your second point, revealed cylons are less effective by design. As others have stated, staying hidden let's you sow suspicion between the other players, mess with skill checks, and choose the perfect moment to reveal your true cylon self. This moment will vary greatly, depending on the players, how suspicious you've been, how much the fleet has been pressured by cylon attacks, etc. In short, each game will play out very differently, providing a real challenge to both human and cylon players. Revealing early definitely limits your ability to mess with the minds of the other players, which is the real meat of this game.
 
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aforandy wrote:
The first game lasted about an hour...


How on earth did you get the game down to an hour? I think the best my group's managed so far is 3.
 
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jkenney23 wrote:
aforandy wrote:
The first game lasted about an hour...


How on earth did you get the game down to an hour? I think the best my group's managed so far is 3.


I would assume that they died
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DuckAndCower wrote:

I think part of the problem for #1 is that scouts and Roslin tend to avoid Cylon attacks for some reason. In my experience, though, you are much more likely to lose from skill checks than from Cylon fleet activity.


True, but Cylon Attack cards have no jump prep symbol, making them a bad choice when you do have a choice.
 
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Chiuso wrote:


But as i see it this is a 7 to me (probably lower after a few more games)...


I gave it a "2" after one game. The game is purely dependent on people who play it to add their own perception of fun, rather than have the game be actually fun.

--James
 
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GameMasterX0 wrote:
jkenney23 wrote:
aforandy wrote:
The first game lasted about an hour...


How on earth did you get the game down to an hour? I think the best my group's managed so far is 3.


I would assume that they died


Starbuck's Viper survived, but I have good reason to believe it was the Cylon. So say we all.
 
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Iceberg1 wrote:
I gave it a "2" after one game. The game is purely dependent on people who play it to add their own perception of fun, rather than have the game be actually fun.

Hmm, after a single game? All this says is that this person is not into this type of game. Some people have played this more than a few times and they still forget some of the finer rules (see the thread here: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2876997#2876997). If you are missing rules that add Cylon ships, then it can surely make your game less interesting.

Folks, if you don't like coop games such as Shadows over Camelot or Lord of the Rings, then you are better off not playing BSG; it's a coop game. shake
 
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If you'll permit me, I'd like to share some of my experiences, as my perspective appears to be different.

Chiuso wrote:
1.) What about dogfighting?

I have played BSG about 9 times now, and although I agree there are lulls in combat after a jump, I have seen many overwhelming dogfights. In a 6-player game just last night, both Lee Adama and Starbuck were out defending the civies when the Cylons counter-attacked (read "activated"). They managed to fend off most of the raiders, but both ended up in Sickbay and we lost one Civilian ship (1 Pop + 1 Morale)... And this was one of three rather "busy" space combats (Starbuck does rock with the double action combined with "Maximum Firepower"; still, she ended up in Sickbay about 3-4 times).

Chiuso wrote:
2.) What about the Cylons?

Out of our 9 games the humans have won once, and that was in a 5-player game where there did not appear to be any Cylons in the first half of the game (and one newbie never revealed himself as a Cylon...duh!)

Using last night's game again, one of the Cylon was about to be discovered, so she revealed herself on turn 3. It's interesting to see how she kept targeting the fleet's morale an "burning" our cards in Skill Checks, even though she was only allowed to play a single card per Skill Check (and no, she did not participate in all of them).

The end came when both Cylons played their Super Crisis cards and wiped out both the fleet's fuel and morale.


On the negative side, two players did mention that they found the game a tad long at 3½ hours, although most of the down time was due to the single newbie at the table. The length can also be credited to our Admiral, who kept "hunting" for fuel and jumping the fleet "1" on three occasions; and no, he wasn't a Cylon, although I must confess I had my doubts right up until the 2nd Cylon revealed himself... Surprisingly it was Baltar and the Chief shake

And this was with a group of Euro gamers that plays Twilight Imperium (Third Edition) now and again...

Is the game only good due to the players who play it? Isn't that the case of ALL games which have a high level of player interaction?

"A game is only as good as the group of people you play it with"
 
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Iceberg1 wrote:
I gave it a "2" after one game. The game is purely dependent on people who play it to add their own perception of fun, rather than have the game be actually fun.


I think you're confusing BSG with Apples to Apples.
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jkenney23 wrote:
Iceberg1 wrote:
I gave it a "2" after one game. The game is purely dependent on people who play it to add their own perception of fun, rather than have the game be actually fun.


I think you're confusing BSG with Apples to Apples.


Everyone has their perception of fun.

Some people like games that require advanced math skills and logical choices. Some people like games that play themselves. And some people like games that are cooperative.

And then there are players like Iceburg1 that enjoy solitaire games. Since all games are highly dependent on who you play them with regardless of the mechanics. There are games with great rules and mechanisms that I cannot stand to play because they are awful at encouraging player interaction or cause really bad feelings between players.

I'll admit that BSG isn't the best game as far as obvious rules/mechanics go. But the main mechanic of this game is the player interaction and the definite paranoia/sabotage that comes with it. So it's not the mechanics that make it a bad game - the only logical answer is that he's not into games that require heavy player interaction.

 
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emceekhan wrote:
jkenney23 wrote:
Iceberg1 wrote:
I gave it a "2" after one game. The game is purely dependent on people who play it to add their own perception of fun, rather than have the game be actually fun.


I think you're confusing BSG with Apples to Apples.


Everyone has their perception of fun.

Some people like games that require advanced math skills and logical choices. Some people like games that play themselves. And some people like games that are cooperative.

And then there are players like Iceburg1 that enjoy solitaire games. Since all games are highly dependent on who you play them with regardless of the mechanics. There are games with great rules and mechanisms that I cannot stand to play because they are awful at encouraging player interaction or cause really bad feelings between players.

I'll admit that BSG isn't the best game as far as obvious rules/mechanics go. But the main mechanic of this game is the player interaction and the definite paranoia/sabotage that comes with it. So it's not the mechanics that make it a bad game - the only logical answer is that he's not into games that require heavy player interaction.



Wrong. I love player interaction. I just don't like this game. I've played it once and it sucked. Why?

- Small Cards: Very difficult to shuffle.

- Small Cards: Very difficult to read

- Cards Mechanic: You are always having to reshuffle the skill decks. This becomes monotonous at times (but at least it gives you something to do on when it isn't your turn)

- Fiddly Rules: Which way do the raiders move? Only that way if there are civilian ships? Which way do the heavy raiders move? Oh, wait! There's a viper there...

- Mountains of text on the game board: Trying to figure out what to do next takes a lot of time, because you have to read all of the options. Ultimately, this doesn't work too well, because most of the options suck most of the time or don't help out your side very much.

- Jumping to a new world is dependent on crisis card draws: In my game, it took forever just to progress to the first spot on the jump track (probably an hour). Once I realized we'd only be jumping 1 or 2 spots per jump, I realized the fun quotient for the game just dropped dramatically, as we were all slugging through trying to get to the next jump.

- Character Roles are limited: The character roles force you into taking certain action cards. These are mostly the same cards all the time. If you don't get cards that can help on a crisis check, well...you just sit there.

- Long ending if you already know which side is going to win: So the cylons have been revealed. You're still 4 planetary spaces away from victory. All of your resources are in the red. The cylons are sabotaging you. You're doomed. Oh wait. Only 1 hour left of the game...

- Crisis Checks, crisis checks, crisis checks: No meaningful decisions. If you have the cards, fight the crisis. If you don't...oh well. If you don't have the cards...boring!

- There's no action in this game: Only occasionally will a viper pilot get to roll the dice to fight a raider, but really between the jumps and the cylons not putting up much of a resistance (at least with the little pieces on the board), there isn't much action.

emceekhan: I'm not some hermit that lives in the mountains in my shack playing solitaire on my computer. My favorite games have plenty of player interaction. In fact, I like Co-op games, too. I've played Shadows Over Camelot and Pandemic (both of which I own because I likee them so much) in the last 2 weeks and had a great time with them. The difference between them and this horrible excuse for a game, is that they are fun, they keep you engaged, and even when it isn't your turn, there's stuff to do, discussions to be had. In BSG, you waste your cards, there's nothing to do.

Oh, I know what you'll say (I've heard it before over and over) that there are decisions to make as a group, but really, it boils down to fighting the crises. That's it. And if you don't have the cards...fughetaboutit.

I've thrown my opinion on this game onto the table. Most people will ignore it, but don't discount who I am or make assumptions about how I play games based on this opinion, or even which games I like. Check my ratings. Most of the games I rate highly, are highly interactive games that also are fun to play with a wide variety of people.

Most of you will like this game in spite of these flaws because you've decided beforehand to like it. I knew barely anything about it when I first played it. I had a horrible experience and it wasn't one I want to relive. There are far better games to use 3+ hours of time playing on.

--James
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Chiuso wrote:
I've played this game a few times and i really want to like it...


Heh. My beef with the game is that it is inelegant. When I spot the die on the table I want to cry. When the die is rolled, I get stabbed through the heart.

The game is all about the card management vis a vis your role. Any time you devalue those cards (by, say, resolving any action with a die roll), you are hurting the game.

I have played it twice, and have enjoyed myself enough. But that die -- I can hear it taunting me: "Keep your silly little cards -- there is no reason to tighten the tension here... It's all random after all..."

Yeah, BSG is my raven.

Alfredo Lorente
 
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mvettemagred wrote:
we had two pilots in our last game, a 3-player affair.

With 3 players you can't have 2 pilots - see rulebook pg.5, Setup step #4
 
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benrankin wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
we had two pilots in our last game, a 3-player affair.

With 3 players you can't have 2 pilots - see rulebook pg.5, Setup step #4


Helo has piloting skill and a pilot token, but is considered a military commander in regards to character choice.
 
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Iceberg1 wrote:
I had a horrible experience and it wasn't one I want to relive.


So move on, dude. Noone's forcing you to come into the BSG posts and rehash your terrible experience with the game every time someone posts. Focus on games you like! It's more fun that way.
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angelkurisu wrote:
Iceberg1 wrote:
I had a horrible experience and it wasn't one I want to relive.


So move on, dude. Noone's forcing you to come into the BSG posts and rehash your terrible experience with the game every time someone posts. Focus on games you like! It's more fun that way.


You're right, man. I need to let go. Thanks.

--James
 
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