Puerto Rico
Puerto Rico
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I like ameritrash games. Those are the only types of games I currently own. I like heavy themes, lovely components, and combat. I like to plan to maximize the odds of the dice.

However I have friends who are into euro games and so I have played Puerto Rico, Shogun, Power Grid, Carcassonne and maybe a few more. Those games are good but they didn’t hold my interest as much. Why? Because I feel more at the mercy of luck than when I’m rolling dice. See, they play with 4-5 players, whereas most my ameritrash gaming sessions are 2-player games. I sincerely fail to see how those euro game sessions involve less luck than my ameritrash sessions. Sure, there are no dice to be rolled, but when I win, I still feel that I luck was THE factor. Only thing is this is not luck of the dice rolling kind, it’s luck of the other players' decisions kind.

Ultimately, it all depends on what all the other players do. It is the sum of THEIR actions, of THEIR decisions that determine who the winner is. When I’m playing 5-player Shogun, I influence 1/5 of the game. My strategy is diluted with all the rest. And this is without taking into consideration the luck of the card draws.

This is why I get a lot more satisfaction from winning a 2-player BattleLore game than a 5-player game of Puerto Rico.
 
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Matt Davis
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New Concord
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So, I realize this is the standard Eurogamer answer, but many Eurogames are about dealing with the subtle interactions between players. Puerto Rico is a fine example of this. About half of the game is predicting other players' actions and trying to position yourself to gain the most benefit from them.

But there are games like Race for the Galaxy or Agricola, where I feel like winning or not is mostly luck. Don't get me wrong, I love both of those games, but playing them is not really about winning for me as much as feeling like I maximized my opportunities in those particular games. I can understand how that might not be as satisfying to some people, though.
 
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Mike Frantz
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Wenatchee
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Which is why most "heavy" multi-player Euro's are at their best with equally skilled players. It is important that the actions of the players be somewhat predictable or, at least, rational. The suboptimal plays are the ones that can be frustrating. Now there are many gamers, like yourself it seems, who prefer two player games (euro, AT, or abstract) for just this very reason, but some of us find that dealing with the chaos can have a certain appeal too. Working around unexpected moves can be a fun challenge. Gaming bliss though is a great multi player game with skilled opponents.

Your distiction between AT and Euro though is off base in this instance. It's more a comparison of two player vs multiplayer. A game of Risk has the same problems as Shogun when it comes to the winner oftentimes being decided by the decisions of the players moreso than the roll of the dice (or cube tower in Shogon's case).
 
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Seriously, turn off Facebook. You'll be happier.
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Riva
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chuckles2000 wrote:

Your distiction between AT and Euro though is off base in this instance. It's more a comparison of two player vs multiplayer. A game of Risk has the same problems as Shogun when it comes to the winner oftentimes being decided by the decisions of the players moreso than the roll of the dice (or cube tower in Shogon's case).


    I largely agree with this sentiment. Two-players means that you get to capitalize on that "suboptimal" play that you mentioned in paragraph one. In fact, in any game, your best hope is for your players to make suboptimal plays, right? That means opportunity for you. The problem is that in a five player game there may be three other players that get to eat up that opportunity before it gets back to your turn.

    Citing games like Agricola or Race for the Galaxy (an earlier post) is a two-edged sword in defense of the "euro" concept (should such a thing actually exist), since both of these games largely decouple the players. They're straight race games with minimal opportunities for you to aid another player with a boneheaded move. But hey -- that's good news for the original poster. He's looking for games where he has more control over his own fate, and these may be good choices for him because of it.

    Jorge, as I read your post, the AT/Euro part of your conclusion struck me as off the mark. In fact, what I saw shining through your words was classic "grog" think. You can call BattleLore a trash game if you like, but I think it's the wargame aspect of it that appeals to you, and if that is the case there are some really nice options for you out there, almost all of which are two-player games. I've been very much enjoying Warriors of God recently which has a euro-centric ruleset and feel but is very much a two-player ground control game. It's 3 hour play time, two-player-only, and deep immersion facets place it firmly off the mark for modern gamers, but it may be just the kind of thing you're looking for. With any luck you'll find it easier to locate opponents than I have.

             Sag.


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Stephen Stewart
United States
Visalia
California
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coolpapa wrote:
So, I realize this is the standard Eurogamer answer, but many Eurogames are about dealing with the subtle interactions between players. Puerto Rico is a fine example of this. About half of the game is predicting other players' actions and trying to position yourself to gain the most benefit from them.

But there are games like Race for the Galaxy or Agricola, where I feel like winning or not is mostly luck. Don't get me wrong, I love both of those games, but playing them is not really about winning for me as much as feeling like I maximized my opportunities in those particular games. I can understand how that might not be as satisfying to some people, though.


Eurogames are MUCH less Luck dependant.

Just invite the Rookie/fool/(recent lobotomy recipient) to your right and ALL the luck will be removed from the game.

Get his favorite refreshment (offboard of course) and snack to minimize the chance he'll sit in front of your nemesis.
 
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UA Darth
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Boca Raton
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I agree and that is why I pretty much only play Euros 2 player. Only fun negotiation games are the exception.
 
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