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War of the Ring: Battles of the Third Age» Forums » Rules

Subject: Shouldn't Ents destroy Orthanc as a Stronghold? rss

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Dan Fielding
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In the book the Ents destroyed Orthanc.

In the game, if an Ent attacks from an adjacent region and kills Saruman, should Orthanc be considered:
1) captured by the Free Player
2) also destroyed, so that the SP can never again use it to Muster?

Either of which would also yield 2 Victory Points.

I think as the rules are written, the answer to both is no; which IMO is wrong.

Even if there are enough Ents remaining to advance into Orthanc while maintaining their chain of Ents, I don't think the rules allow them to count as occupying the region -- they are not Army units.

Even if so, I don't think the rules allow them to advance both before and after combat.

***

Does Treebeard count as "an Ent located in Fangorn" or do only the 8 blue colored Ents count for comprising parts of the chain?
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Einmal ist keinmal
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Gronak wrote:
Does Treebeard count as "an Ent located in Fangorn" or do only the 8 blue colored Ents count for comprising parts of the chain?

I may be wrong, but I don't think Treebeard is even used in the Twilight expansion. He is used only in the Gondor Battle scenario.

As for the rest of your questions, I'm not sure I can answer that other than to say that you seem to already understand the rules, but are looking for a reasonable explanation as to "why". Maybe the Ents just do their business and then retreat back to their forest, so they don't "occupy" Orthanc. Maybe Sauron sends a replacement for Saruman who continues to muster orcs and wargs?
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Wes Ware
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1) In the book, Orthanc was never destroyed. The rock-throwing Ents couldn't make a dent in the tower. They simply occupied the region around tower Orthanc so as to prevent the wizard from escaping. Saruman was eventually released and allowed to leave...after which he scoured the Shire. Semantics, really.....

2) I could be wrong, but my take on it is that the FP doesn't get the 2 VP until Rohan actually occupies the region. I guess its because the ents are not really a formal army and do not muster as one. Quoting Treebeard, "I'm not altogether on anyone's side because no one is altogether on my side." But the ents and trees do hate the cutting and chopping orcs. So they do move out of Fangorn...hunt some orc...and then go back home to their forest.

I would prefer a house rule whereby neither the FP nor the SP can have Orthanc (for mustering purposes) once Saurman is killed....until a FP or SP "army" occupies it.

Now the uruk-hai(if any are left) could go and reoccupy the region. Even so, my guess is Rohan would be able to muster enough force to move up and formally occupy the stronghold for two points. So you will likely have a few more skirmishes after Saruman's demise, depending on the SP reaction.

3) As for Treebeard, I do use him along with the other 8 Ents figures. In fact, I always place him first in Fangorn...since he is the one who calls the Ents to war in the first place.
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Kevin Chapman
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The Treebeard figure has no special function in the main game expansion. You can use it if you wish to, but if you do you should only use seven of the regular Ent figures. There should only be a total of eight Ent figures in play.
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Dan Fielding
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Looks like the only way to capture Orthanc is to begin with Rohan in the region and THEN use the Ents.

This is unlikely to happen.
 
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Ken
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Or just ding the region with the Ents and follow up with a decent army from Rohan. Even with Saruman kicking around you can make this work. In all likelihood, once the region is both threatened and empty, the Shadow player will leave the region vacant so you can't kill Saruman and cost him the die he gives.
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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perfalbion wrote:
In all likelihood, once the region is both threatened and empty, the Shadow player will leave the region vacant so you can't kill Saruman and cost him the die he gives.


Except if the Ents empty the region Saruman is destroyed anyways.
 
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Ken
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BagpipeDan wrote:
Except if the Ents empty the region Saruman is destroyed anyways.


I just looked through the FAQ and this doesn't appear to be true. The Ent event isn't a standard attack.

The FAQ has changed since I last looked, though. If the FP capture Saruman in this way, you can remove him from the game by playing another Ent card as an event.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Page 5 of the Twilight of the Third Age rules:
Quote:
If an Ent attack eliminates all Shadow units in Orthanc, or if Orthanc is free of enemy units and an Ent is moved there, remove Saruman from the game.
 
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Ken
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Krieghund wrote:
Page 5 of the Twilight of the Third Age rules:
Quote:
If an Ent attack eliminates all Shadow units in Orthanc, or if Orthanc is free of enemy units and an Ent is moved there, remove Saruman from the game.


Pardon me if I appear to be obstinate, but we're focusing on the base game. I believe you're referring to the expansion, which significantly changed the way that the Ent cards are used. In the base game, the Ent attack is a card effect and not an battle. It's resolved differently. In the base game, leaders/characters are only removed through a battle that eliminates all of the units on one side. Since the Ents don't qualify for this, Saruman should remain on the map.

Unless that correction you're pointing to is a revision to the original rules, I think Saruman remains in place. And if it is, it should really be in the FAQ.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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perfalbion wrote:
Pardon me if I appear to be obstinate, but we're focusing on the base game. I believe you're referring to the expansion, which significantly changed the way that the Ent cards are used.

I think that if you read this thread again, you'll see that we are discussing the expansion here.

perfalbion wrote:
In the base game, the Ent attack is a card effect and not an battle. It's resolved differently. In the base game, leaders/characters are only removed through a battle that eliminates all of the units on one side. Since the Ents don't qualify for this, Saruman should remain on the map.

Unless that correction you're pointing to is a revision to the original rules, I think Saruman remains in place. And if it is, it should really be in the FAQ.

Normally, you'd be correct, but the Ent cards are an exception. From the card text:
Quote:
Roll three dice and force the Shadow Player to take one casualty in the Orthanc Region for every result of 4+. If, after this roll, no Shadow units remain in Orthanc, eliminate Saruman.
 
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Krieghund wrote:
I think that if you read this thread again, you'll see that we are discussing the expansion here.


My mistake. I forgot that Treebeard did not appear in the base game.
 
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Antigonus Monophthalmus
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perfalbion wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
I think that if you read this thread again, you'll see that we are discussing the expansion here.


My mistake. I forgot that Treebeard did not appear in the base game.


It is also in the base game, though, that if Orthanc is empty Saruman is destroyed.
 
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Dan Fielding
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FP Action: Ents attack Orthanc region from Fords of Isen. Kill Saruman & all army figures.

Apparently Ents don't count for capturing the region, so:

SP Action: Build an army in Orthanc region.
 
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Chris Crowder
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Quote:
I may be wrong, but I don't think Treebeard is even used in the Twilight expansion. He is used only in the Gondor Battle scenario.


Treebeard is only used in the Rohan expansion.

Quote:
In all likelihood, once the region is both threatened and empty, the Shadow player will leave the region vacant so you can't kill Saruman and cost him the die he gives.


Saruman can't be moved from Orthanc under any circumstances.
 
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Dan Fielding
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The "actual rules" summary says that Treebeard must stay in Fangorn.

Which implies that he counts as an Ent for the required chain.

Has the author said whether the WOTR With Expansion game uses only the Blue Ent figures or the blue Ents plus Treebeard?

***

If an Ent attacks Orthanc from an adjacent region and destroys Saruman, and you have enough Ents to continue the chain, can an Ent advance after combat into the Orthanc region?

If so, what game effect would this have? Would it prevent the SP from building units in Orthanc?

***

If Saruman is destroyed, and Orthanc is not taken by the FP, the SP can continue to build units in Orthanc.

But does he place figures from Saruman's force pool, or must he use figures from the Sauron force pool?

IE, does Sauron take over Saruman's magical Uruk Hai production facilities or must he assign his own Orcs?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Gronak wrote:
The "actual rules" summary says that Treebeard must stay in Fangorn.

Which implies that he counts as an Ent for the required chain.

Has the author said whether the WOTR With Expansion game uses only the Blue Ent figures or the blue Ents plus Treebeard?

The Treebeard figure is not used in the main game. It's not included in the components list on page 2, and it's not mentioned in the rules. Only the eight regular Ent figures are used.

Gronak wrote:
If an Ent attacks Orthanc from an adjacent region and destroys Saruman, and you have enough Ents to continue the chain, can an Ent advance after combat into the Orthanc region?

Yes. However, the Ents will be removed after the last Ent card is played.

Gronak wrote:
If so, what game effect would this have? Would it prevent the SP from building units in Orthanc?

It would have no effect until the Ents are activated again, at which point an Army in the Region may be attacked.

Gronak wrote:
If Saruman is destroyed, and Orthanc is not taken by the FP, the SP can continue to build units in Orthanc.

Yes.

Gronak wrote:
But does he place figures from Saruman's force pool, or must he use figures from the Sauron force pool?

IE, does Sauron take over Saruman's magical Uruk Hai production facilities or must he assign his own Orcs?

The Isengard Nation still exists, even though Saruman doesn't. It will still continue to produce Isengard units.
 
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