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Subject: Something bugs me... rss

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Chris Rudram
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I've only played this once, and it took a little long (would have been quicker if the 'to hit' numbers for the combat where somewhere on the board). But I enjoyed the paranoia.

However, one thing bugged me... in the 5-player game, the gurantee of two cylons seemed 'wrong'. Having one appear eventually makes sense. But having a guranteed two took away some tension towards the end of the game. Having one -maybe- two would be far more paranoia inducing (and probably make a Cylon less like to reveal, as the enemy within can be better than that without).

Has anyone tried with a variation where there's one or two extra 'Not a Cylon' cards added to the shuffle, giving the likelyhood of a solo Cylon (one card would still gurantee a Cylon, two could make a no-Cylon game, but a way around that could be found as there's a two deals of the cards).

 
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Thomas Eastside, Esq.
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I think 4 humans to a single Cylon would totally unbalance the 5-player game (too easy for the humans).
 
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Matt Davis
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I wonder if the game couldn't take (another) cue from Shadows over Camelot. There might not be a traitor, but if Cylons are unrevealed at the end, something bad happens to the humans.... Maybe after the "last" jump, the unrevealed Cylon reveals to force the Humans to jump again to win? I haven't thought about how well this would work - just throwing out ideas... This might make the 3-player game in particular more interesting.
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Rich Chamberlain
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Remember that this is a Team game - it's supposed to be Cylon vs Human and is balanced to work that way. The paranoia is great but you must not confuse "Who is a Cylon/when did they become a Cylon?" with "Are there any Cylons at all?". BSG is not a traditional co-op game where you beat the game itself but rather you achieve a goal despite the best efforts of the opposing team.

Shadows of Camelot is a more traditional approach to a co-op game with the added uncertainty of a Traitor but in BSG the teams comes first and the game plays secondary to this.
 
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James Palmer
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What about if when the first cylon reveals himself to be a cylon, he takes 2 super-crisis cards. Once the second around of loyalty cards happens, he looks at the remaining loyalty cards, and thus knows if there's another cylon out there or not. If he's the only one, then he is allowed to play his second super-crisis card as well. This of course, does reveal that he's the only cylon, but it is still a ways into the game before anyone knows for sure if there is a second cylon.
 
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Jim Patterson
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coolpapa wrote:
I wonder if the game couldn't take (another) cue from Shadows over Camelot. There might not be a traitor, but if Cylons are unrevealed at the end, something bad happens to the humans.... Maybe after the "last" jump, the unrevealed Cylon reveals to force the Humans to jump again to win? I haven't thought about how well this would work - just throwing out ideas... This might make the 3-player game in particular more interesting.


I've considered whether a possibly-no-Cylon variant wouldn't work. I think it'd at least be worth a shot, especially for a group experienced with BSG. The ultimate irony would be the casting of suspicion when no one was intentionally trying to hurt the group. Call it the Pogo variant.
 
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Gary Weinfurther
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Odinsday wrote:
Having one -maybe- two would be far more paranoia inducing


That's the way it works now. One person could be dealt both Cylon cards.
 
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James Palmer
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elmonty wrote:
Odinsday wrote:
Having one -maybe- two would be far more paranoia inducing


That's the way it works now. One person could be dealt both Cylon cards.


Yes, but there is still almost invariably 2 cylons in that situation, since the cylon can give away the card to someone else.
 
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Matt Smith
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jpat wrote:
coolpapa wrote:
I wonder if the game couldn't take (another) cue from Shadows over Camelot. There might not be a traitor, but if Cylons are unrevealed at the end, something bad happens to the humans.... Maybe after the "last" jump, the unrevealed Cylon reveals to force the Humans to jump again to win? I haven't thought about how well this would work - just throwing out ideas... This might make the 3-player game in particular more interesting.


I've considered whether a possibly-no-Cylon variant wouldn't work. I think it'd at least be worth a shot, especially for a group experienced with BSG. The ultimate irony would be the casting of suspicion when no one was intentionally trying to hurt the group. Call it the Pogo variant.

This would also help to curb the tendency to not go all out in the first half of the game, because you know you could become a cylon in the sleeper phase. If there's a chance that no one is/becomes a cylon, then the humans should go all out from the start.

That being said, I'm not enamored with trying to make BSG more like SoC. I like the forced team aspect of BSG, and the challenge presented by the variations in cylon timing. Ensuring there will be at least one cylon keeps the game from being to "lovey dovey" at the start. Experienced BSG players start out suspicious of the other players, and it just gets more tense from there (until any cylon reveals, of course). That gives this game great atmosphere.
 
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Jeff Wood
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Felkor wrote:
elmonty wrote:
Odinsday wrote:
Having one -maybe- two would be far more paranoia inducing


That's the way it works now. One person could be dealt both Cylon cards.


Yes, but there is still almost invariably 2 cylons in that situation, since the cylon can give away the card to someone else.


Can, not must. Might be able to cause more damage amoung the players by simply holding the other one and concentrating on using Caprica rather than 'wasting' a turn on the Resurrection Ship.

It is not up to the Cylon to quell the suspicion that another Cylon is still out there.
 
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James Palmer
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Cinnibar wrote:
Felkor wrote:
elmonty wrote:
Odinsday wrote:
Having one -maybe- two would be far more paranoia inducing


That's the way it works now. One person could be dealt both Cylon cards.


Yes, but there is still almost invariably 2 cylons in that situation, since the cylon can give away the card to someone else.


Can, not must. Might be able to cause more damage amoung the players by simply holding the other one and concentrating on using Caprica rather than 'wasting' a turn on the Resurrection Ship.

It is not up to the Cylon to quell the suspicion that another Cylon is still out there.


True, but trading one Cylon action for many more Cylon actions seems to me to be a no-brainer. And giving a card doesn't quell suspicion, since you could be giving a You're Not a Cylon card. :-)

And since the same ability also lets you trade in your Super-Crisis card, it's often not "wasting" a turn anyways.

I'm just saying, it's unlikely that a Cylon wouldn't give their other Cylon card away. And if they didn't, I would probably consider it poor play overall.
 
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Subhan Michael Tindall
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Having played several each of 4P, 5P, & 6P games, I'm of the strong opinion that the 5P game w/2 cylons is really the sweet spot for the game. Both the 4P with 1 cylon + sympathizer & the 6P with 2 cylons + sympathizer just don't work quite as well.
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Jeff Wood
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Felkor wrote:
Cinnibar wrote:
Felkor wrote:

Yes, but there is still almost invariably 2 cylons in that situation, since the cylon can give away the card to someone else.


Can, not must. Might be able to cause more damage amoung the players by simply holding the other one and concentrating on using Caprica rather than 'wasting' a turn on the Resurrection Ship.

It is not up to the Cylon to quell the suspicion that another Cylon is still out there.


True, but trading one Cylon action for many more Cylon actions seems to me to be a no-brainer. And giving a card doesn't quell suspicion, since you could be giving a You're Not a Cylon card. :-)


Ah, but leaving yourself with one Loyalty card does quell suspicion as it is now a certainty that the other Cylon card is in play.

Felkor wrote:

And since the same ability also lets you trade in your Super-Crisis card, it's often not "wasting" a turn anyways.

I'm just saying, it's unlikely that a Cylon wouldn't give their other Cylon card away. And if they didn't, I would probably consider it poor play overall.


I was indicating a 'bluff' there, actually. devil "Cool Super-Crisis, you humans are going down once you're hurt a little more!" It is really to keep the other players thinking you are all 'set' and are concentrating on killing them when actually you are just biding your time waiting for the right moment to 'convert' a key human.

Hopefully, while the Cylon is waiting, the humans are distrusting each other trying to find the non-existant (yet) Cylon. If you're lucky, someone gets thrown into the Brig. sauron
 
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James Palmer
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I think we're pretty much in agreement, Jeff. I think there are definitely some different ways to play if you end up with both Cylon cards (something that happened to me in my first game!) At the same time, I think it would be incredibly rare (if not universally untrue) that keeping that extra cylon card through the whole game and never giving it out would be a good idea.

Would you agree, or do you see a situation where holding onto that Cylon card throughout the entire game would be a good idea?

In my own experience playing the game, the main reason to hold onto it for awhile would just be to figure out who would be best to give it to. Then I would give it to someone based on the following criteria:

1) Who's the best player? Obviously I want someone who's good at the game on my team.
2) Who's in a critical situation to turn the tide of the game? A pilot out defending the fleet or an Admiral soon to decide where to go on a jump could be a prime target.
3) What about the people sitting beside me? From my experience playing, having 2 cylons next to each other is bad news for the humans, as the cylons can give attack twice in a row with the humans not getting any chance to respond.

Anyways, I think I'm getting way off topic here... good discussion though!
 
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Jeff Wood
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One of the best reasons to keep the other Cylon card: Ability to declare a solo victory in a 4+ player game.

This happens when the humans just are dying without much help needed from the Cylon, so the Cylon never has a reason to create another Cylon. Of course, the Cylon must choose to sacrifice overkill-via-Cylon vs bragging rights.
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James Palmer
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Cinnibar wrote:
One of the best reasons to keep the other Cylon card: Ability to declare a solo victory in a 4+ player game.

This happens when the humans just are dying without much help needed from the Cylon, so the Cylon never has a reason to create another Cylon. Of course, the Cylon was sacrifice overkill-via-Cylon vs bragging rights.


Haha, I guess that's a viable reason. I probably could have done that in the game I had both cards, but I opted for the overkill-via-Cylon option. We had 16 raiders in one section on the map - plowed through their defenses and civilian ships oh so quickly! I think I'd pick the overkill option again if I was presented with the same choice again. :-)
 
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Mike Brian
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I would actually love to somehow fiddle the loyalty deck to begin with and watch a game knowing ALL the players were Cylons without them knowing. Would be very funny to watch the pseudo-paranoia.

Mike
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Chris J Davis
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mikebrn wrote:
I would actually love to somehow fiddle the loyalty deck to begin with and watch a game knowing ALL the players were Cylons without them knowing. Would be very funny to watch the pseudo-paranoia.

Mike


Oh my god, that is such an evil idea I'm surprised I didn't think of it myself! devil
 
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Ken
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jpat wrote:
I've considered whether a possibly-no-Cylon variant wouldn't work. I think it'd at least be worth a shot, especially for a group experienced with BSG. The ultimate irony would be the casting of suspicion when no one was intentionally trying to hurt the group. Call it the Pogo variant.


Why would there be any suspicion at all? You'd never see more than two bad cards in any skill check, so you'd probably be able to figure out there wasn't a Cylon around. You'd need to play with the Destiny deck mechanic or find some way to adjust the crisis card values up for each unrevealed Cylon that could be around to make this work, and that'd end up impacting other things.
 
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Ken
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mikebrn wrote:
I would actually love to somehow fiddle the loyalty deck to begin with and watch a game knowing ALL the players were Cylons without them knowing. Would be very funny to watch the pseudo-paranoia.


In the first game we played, we didn't realize there were four "You are a Cylon" cards and had all of them in the deck. When four Cylons are kicking around, the paranoia factor goes way down and the game may as well have been "What if Galactica was destroyed in the initial invasion?"
 
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bleached_lizard wrote:
mikebrn wrote:
I would actually love to somehow fiddle the loyalty deck to begin with and watch a game knowing ALL the players were Cylons without them knowing. Would be very funny to watch the pseudo-paranoia.

Mike


Oh my god, that is such an evil idea I'm surprised I didn't think of it myself! devil


I can tell you that this is extremely fun for Shadows Over Camelot. One time, before the expansion came out, we had too many people so I decided to sit out. In doing so, however, I decided to hand out the loyalty cards myself and look at them one by one. I was careful not to ruin it with a facial expression. The rest of the game I knew who they were as I watched and it was pretty great.
 
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