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Subject: What's Next: series 4, 5, 6 questions rss

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Ted Kreider
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Andrea gave us some hints on what he's thinking the next minis will probably be.

See this thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/354821

angiolillo wrote:
Next minis will probably be

R.A.F. SE5a Lieutenant Colonel William Avery Bishop 85 Squadron Royal Flying Corps
R.A.F. SE5a Major Roderic Stanley Dallas 40 Squadron Royal Flying Corps
R.A.F. SE5a Joseph E. Boudwin 25th Aero Squadron United States Air Service

Pfalz D.III Leutnant Fritz Höhn Jasta 21s Luftstreitskräfte
Pfalz D.III Leutnant Hans Klein Jasta 10 Luftstreitskräfte
Pfalz D.IIIa Vizefeldwebel Max Hotlzem Jasta 16b Luftstreitskräfte

Breguet BR.14 B2 - BR 107 Aviation Militaire
Breguet BR.14 B2 - BR 129 Aviation Militaire
Breguet BR.14 B2 - 96th Squadron American Expeditionary Force

Rumpler C.IV-VII to be defined

Then I'd like to feature Sopwith Triplane and Hanriots soon, but a set of early planes (E.III and Halberdstadt D.III against Morane Saulnier and Airco DH2) could be great too...


I have questions for Andrea, if he has the answers...

1) Is it official that series 4 will be Se5a, Pfalz DIII, Beguet and Rumpler? If not official, how likely?

2) Can we expect two releases in 2009? Will the introduction of the WWII minis hold up the production on the WWI minis?

3) If you do a set with the Sopwith Triplane and the Hanriots, what German aircraft could you match them with? I think we're running out of more common German aircraft, leaving only the more rare ones, such as the Siemens-Schukert DI.

I'd like to hear from other fans of the game on these next questions...

1) If series 4 is already planned (Se5a, Pfalz DIII, Beguet and Rumpler), which set would like to see as series 5: the early war set idea Andrea mentioned (E.III and Halberdstadt D.III against Morane Saulnier and Airco DH2) or the Sopwith Triplane and Hanriot?

2) What planes would you match in a set that had the Sopwith Triplane and Hanriot? The SS D1? Some unloved plane like the Roland DII? What about making it an 'allies only' set with Sopwith Triplane, Hanriot, Nieuport 11... Spad VII?

3) Is it too early to start talking about what the next release will be? Is it wrong to beg game designers for information, even when they are so good about sharing info with the fans anyway?
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Jon
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I want non-plane stuff.
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Stephen Harper
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Early war would be okay for Set 5.
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Andrea Angiolino
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tedman wrote:
I have questions for Andrea, if he has the answers...

1) Is it official that series 4 will be Se5a, Pfalz DIII, Beguet and Rumpler? If not official, how likely?

2) Can we expect two releases in 2009? Will the introduction of the WWII minis hold up the production on the WWI minis?

3) If you do a set with the Sopwith Triplane and the Hanriots, what German aircraft could you match them with? I think we're running out of more common German aircraft, leaving only the more rare ones, such as the Siemens-Schukert DI.


1) Almost official. I'd say 95% likely.

2) I think that Balloon Busters (Ni.16 + balloon), WWI Series 4 and WWII Series 1, a playing mat plus some boxes and boosters can be expected in 2009. WWI Series 5, WWII Series 2 and maybe WWI Series 6 plus maybe another special kit as Balloon Booster for WWII and one for WWII can be probably be squeezed in 2010.

3) SS D.III could be a nice one, even if not so common. Then, what about an Austrian fighter? Or a Pfalz D.XII, that's not so rare after all?
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Kevin Duke
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An Albatross DII would be an appropriate plane to sell with a Sopwith Triplane. The Hanroit is a little later. I realize we don't have the maneuver deck for a Alb DII yet (but hope you will fix that!). We don't have an Austrian fighter or Pfalz D12 yet, so it appears the door is opened a bit.

And since it's open, let me make a strong appeal for the Halberstadt CL II. It's the closest thing the Germans got to a "2 seater fighter" and useful for a wide variety of roles-- originally intended to escort "normal" 2 seaters and then shifted to ground attack. It won't be very fast but it would be maneuverable. And, of course, it's familiar to all the Blue Max players, who you must care something about (which is why we have cards for the SS D3!)

The focus is on Central Powers right now, so I'll agree that adding an Austrian designed fighter (versus just Austrian markings on German designs) would be a nice thing to add-- the Ufag needs some company, after all.

But if the door opens for another Allied design, I hope you'll consider the Sopwith 1 1/2 strutter. This one had long legs, in terms of use. Appropriate in British markings it could go against the Roland and Halberstadt (and Albastros D2 and D3), while the French made over 5000 of them to use starting in mid 1917, which makes it appropriate for about anything up to maybe against the Fokker D7 and Snipe. A very worthy addition, which not many people know about. (And a rotary engined 2 seater is pretty unusual.)

Oh, let me add one vote of "thanks" if Series 4 comes out as described.
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Jim P
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tedman wrote:

I'd like to hear from other fans of the game on these next questions...


Here would be my wish list after Series 4;

A Must for me;
Balloon Busters expantion
Big Bombers Gotha G.V, Handley Page O/100, A.E.G. G IV, Caproni Ca.3, Zepplin R, Caudron G.III / G.4,
Breguet 14
SSW D.III
SSW D.IV
Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa
Pfalz D.XII
Albatros C.III
Albatros C.X
Junker D.I
Junkers CL.I (J10)
Hannover CL.IIIa
Hanriot HD.1
RAF SE5/5a
Bristol F.2b Fighter
Nieuport 28C
Nieuport 12
Sopwith 1-1/2 Strutter
Salmson 2
RAF B.E.2c

My Wish List;
Alb D.II
Fokker E.III
Pfalz E
Fokker D.I
Fokker EV/DVIII
Jumker J.I
Halberstadt D.II
Hansa Brandenburg D.I
Aviatik D.I
Phönix D.I
Rumpler 6B
De Havilland D.H.2
Sopwith Trip
Sopwith Pup
Armstrong-Whitworth F.K.8
Avro 504
RAF R.E.8
Morane-Saulnier Type N
Morane Saulnier Type L

My Fantasy list;
SPAD A2 (I know it's an odd plane)
Sopwith Dophin
Pomilio PE
Ansaldo Balilla
Hansa-Brandenburg W.12
Roland D.II
Rumpler C.IV / VII
D.F.W. C.V
Pfalz DR.I
Taube ( I know I know, I just love the look of this plane)

Well that's my Short List
Jim P cool
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Ted Kreider
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Andrea, thank you for your answers.

angiolillo wrote:

1) Almost official. I'd say 95% likely.


That is really good news. I'm really looking forward to Series 4.

angiolillo wrote:

2) I think that Balloon Busters (Ni.16 + balloon), WWI Series 4 and WWII Series 1, a playing mat plus some boxes and boosters can be expected in 2009. WWI Series 5, WWII Series 2 and maybe WWI Series 6 plus maybe another special kit as Balloon Booster for WWII and one for WWII can be probably be squeezed in 2010.


Looks like a WWI and a WWII minis release each year is the plan then? The playing mat sounds cool, I think I've seen pictures of that. It's the Dario Cali background isn't it? http://www.wingsofwar.it/read.asp?id=1283

angiolillo wrote:

3) SS D.III could be a nice one, even if not so common. Then, what about an Austrian fighter? Or a Pfalz D.XII, that's not so rare after all?


SS D.III is less interesting to me. I like the Snipe and DVII as nice 'end of the war' fighters, but don't have a need for anymore. They don't match up well against the other more '1917' planes. Did you mean SS D.III or SS D.I? I can see the SS D.I as a good match against the Sopwith Triplane. Similar time period, similar production runs, speed, guns, etc.

An Austrian fighter is a great idea, and a perfect foil for your Italian Hanriots. I think the Aviatik DI came in both single and double machine guns too, just like the Hanriot. Does anyone know about the maneuvering of the Aviatik DI? Would it match the Hanriot well?

Series 5: Hanriot, Tripe, SS DI, Aviatik DI... ?

 
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Ted Kreider
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jasta6 wrote:

Here would be my wish list after Series 4;


Thanks for posting... that's quite a short list. Which planes do you think would make good pairings in a release though? What planes are popular enough to sell well and keep the releases coming? One of the reasons I started this thread is that I think Andrea really pays attention to fan preferences. The proposal of the Rumpler for Series 4 is I think a direct response to fan demand. The Se5a and Pfalz DIII pairing had also been floated in forum banter previously.

I'm seeing a strong demand for the Hanriot in forum postings as well, so I'm guessing that will be on the shortlist for Series 5, along with the Sopwith Triplane. What German or Austrian planes would make nice 'dancing partners' for these two? What would make a nice historical match? What would make a balanced opponent in game play?
 
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Kevin Duke
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Unfortunately the "after Series 4" list ignores what's already on Series 4.

I've already stated an Albatros D-II would be historically appropriate for the Sop Triplane. Who could "dance" with it? Not much but the Fokker Triplane-- developed because the Germans realized they had nothing to dance with it.

What matches up well with the Hanroit? On the Western Front, it would have been facing mostly Alb DVs and Fokker Triplanes. In Italy? Well, the test pilot for the Aviatik (Berg) D1 commented that the plane had "fabulous climb and enormous maneuverability." It being the first fighter totally designed by AH folks gives it a mark also. So that is a possibility.

After Series 1, we've always had some 2 seaters, however, so should we look for a couple of those to add to Series 5? Oh-- I already have!
 
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Ted Kreider
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kduke wrote:
Well, the test pilot for the Aviatik (Berg) D1 commented that the plane had "fabulous climb and enormous maneuverability." It being the first fighter totally designed by AH folks gives it a mark also. So that is a possibility.


Cool, sounds like there's some agreement that the Aviatik DI is a good match for the Hanriot HD.1. I checked top speeds on those two planes and they were listed pretty much the same as well. Looking at pictures of the Aviatik, I like it's appearance. It looks more like a Fokker than an Albatross in profile, and the photo I saw showed it in lozenge pattern, which always looks good.

I looked up the Albatross DII as well. Its service dates overlap the Tripehound, but it starts in 1916 while the Tripe first appears in 1917. Their speeds look about the same, but the Tripe is of course more maneuverable while the Alb has two guns to the Tripe's one (yeah I know there were exceptions).

I dunno, I guess I want to like the Alb DII but it's hard to get excited about another bullet body (with the DIII, DVa and Pfalz already). The SS DI may be an oddity that only lasted a few months in 1917 before being relegated to trainer duty, but at least it would look different from other German planes. (though I guess it would look and awful lot like a Nieuport...) Sadly, the Germans didn't produce as much variety, but at least their paint jobs were nicer.

Anybody else have other ideas about what to match to the Sopwith Triplane? We gotta figure this out before 2010!
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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tedman wrote:
Looks like a WWI and a WWII minis release each year is the plan then?


Well, that's the minimum. I'd do more, but apart for the lenght of the process (no shortcut - let's go into production only when the prototypes are 100% convincing for us) the marketing does not want to force the fans wanting everything to spend too much each year feraing to loose them. Let's see.

tedman wrote:
The playing mat sounds cool, I think I've seen pictures of that. It's the Dario Cali background isn't it? http://www.wingsofwar.it/read.asp?id=1283


Yes it is. This is not the prototype, not for material nor size nor contrast nor anything else, but the drawing is that one and the general effect colud be something like this (click to enlarge):





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Kevin Duke
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What would the mat be made out of? Felt? Soft plastic? Something else?

thanks


Oh, per the "we must match the Sopwith Triplane," it's really not possible. They "matched" it in FA with a plane that uses the same deck-- altho historically there are no accounts of the triplanes ever meeting (yes, it's just too good to pass up!).

But there were only about 150 made.

Yes, the Alb. DII is "another bullet nose" but at least it's not a V-strutter. The "German Spad" would be appropriate to mix in scenarios with the Alb D-3 and N-17, as well as creeping into earlier times with the Halberstadt D and Roland (and future possible additions, DH2 and Sop Pup). As a "transition" plane, I don't expect its performance to match better planes, but it is interesting and very useful.
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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I think some kind of soft plastic/foam, but I really dso not know...

All the best!

A.
 
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Ted Kreider
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kduke wrote:
Oh, per the "we must match the Sopwith Triplane," it's really not possible. They "matched" it in FA with a plane that uses the same deck-- altho historically there are no accounts of the triplanes ever meeting (yes, it's just too good to pass up!).


I think I meant 'match' in a broader sense, not that the planes are identical. In series 1, all the planes were well matched despite having very different traits - you could fly any of them against each other and get a good balanced game that didn't defy history. In series 2 and 3, this was true of the fighters in each set, but less so of the two seaters (the Roland being a point of contention for some of us if I recall, myself included).

Speaking of two seaters, I'm suprised you didn't suggest the Bristol F2B along with the Halberstadt CLII. I think getting a couple of two seater fighters would be a good match in a release. Funny that in the ideas Andrea mentioned for series 5 and 6 he didn't say anything about two seaters, just the Tripe/Hanriot and early war fighters.

I wonder if Andrea is thinking that future releases will mostly be fighters or is this just a coincidence? With one WWI release a year the fighters would get out faster if the two seaters were dropped. I wonder if the two seaters are selling as well as the fighters? My FLGS does seem to have two seaters even after the fighters sell out.

Kevin, thanks for all your comments. I always learn something new about WWI planes from you. I didn't know much about the Alb DII previously but have been reading up on it since you mentioned it.
 
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Kevin Duke
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Ted- yes indeed, I've been asking for the Brisfit for a long time.

In this case, you had 2 Allied planes "picked" and were looking for additional German planes for the 4th slot.

I'm curious about what sort of Maneuver Deck the Brisfit should have... something like the Alb DV perhaps? That's close on speed and the Brisfit was certainly more maneuverable than the average 2 seater. Unlike the present 2 seaters, I'd say the Brisfit (and Halberstadt if it came) would certainly get to use the Immelmann.

Aside from that, I'm not sure about it.

IN FACT, now that I think about the value in game and historical terms (and the limited numbers of Tripes involved), I think it would be more valuable to make Series 5 have the Hanroit and Aviatik as the fighter component and the Brisfit and Halberstadt CL2 as the 2 seater component. I know that may spawn a lynch mob, since the "Tripe vs Tripe" action is a beloved dancing match... altho there are no accounts that such a battle EVER happened. (Tripes out of service by the time the Fokkers arrived.) Further, given that most of the Tripes used came out of the naval squadrons, the idea of getting 3 minies which are almost the same (as happened with the Snipes) is not very appealing to me. If they do go with the tripes, I hope they'll spread the color field a bit. (Without looking, I seem to recall FA had a tan colored one...))

Speaking of reading, I've been doing a lot of reading on the subject the past month and was surprised to learn how low the numbers of planes were-- thru the end of 1916, there were something like 200 German fighters on the entire Western Front-- and on how "extended" plane use could be-- with significant numbers of Alb D-IIIs fighting all through 1917 and even into 1918, altho the later versions were almost exclusively by OAW, who had pretty much gotten rid of the weak lower wing problem (something the Austrian versions avoided completely but did not share with the Germans. The Austrians had "late war" Alb D-3s with much larger engines and better performance than what we're used to.)

I've also come to form a strong desire to have Fokker E-IV and D-2 and/or D-3 minies as part of the WoW mix. The E-Iv lasted on into the fighter mix with the biplanes (likd the Halb D that we already have) and would be found even after the Albatroses started showing up. Its' a bit more competitive with the N-11 and DH2 also...No one makes an E-IV or early D version Fokker in 1/144th that I know of (If someone has a source, please post or PM me!)


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Jim P
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tedman wrote:
that's quite a short list. Which planes do you think would make good pairings...


OK I see what you were after! First let me say, I come from a historical standpoint. I like to see planes that would have encountered themselves even if it means a bit unbalanced for heads up play. This review also discounts the WoW:WW2 series. That is only for the matter of producing the WW1 mini’s. I don't expect or want the WW1 stuff to take presidents over any release of the WW2 stuff. Theye are both great games and both deserving of miniatures.

First I would like to see the Balloon Busters released
One balloon and a plane or two (since it appears here on BGG I believe it will be out in the next year or so) The first pack will be with a Caquot M Balloon and a Nieuport Ni.16 fighter, two box sets released with different pilots and colors for the Nieuport. I would also like to see this Balloon buster set released again with maybe a Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa fighter too. This one with a Parseval Balloon. This way we can have two of the most prevalent balloon types used during the Great War.

Next I would like to see another mixed group for 12 aircraft with R.A.F. S.E. 5/5a, Bristol F.2b Fighters, Pfalz D.III/D.IIIa and Hannover Cl.IIIa. This would give the two-seater the needed fighter versions that we don’t have now.

Next I would LOVE to see a set of Big Bombers made. Gotha G.III or G.V, then a Caproni Ca.3 and a Handley Page 0/100. Even a Zeppelin R type would be nice. Then from here the A.E.G. G.IV and a Caudron G.III would be great.

Maybe next some S.P.A.D. VIIs, Albatros D.III, Albators C.III or C.X and Sopwith 1-1/2 Strutters. Giving us some 1916ish aircraft.

Future releases could provide more lter war plane such as S.S.W. D.IV, Nieuport 28.C, Salmson 2 and Junker Cl.I

Oh yes, we can’t forget the origins of WW1, we need to get the Fokker E.III/IV, De Havilland DH.2, Albatros D.II and Sopwith Pup or Morane-Saulnier Type N or L.

The list could go on. There is the Italian front with Austria-Hungry, where Nexus could pair up an Albatros D.53 and the aviatik D.I against the Ansaldo A.1 Balilla or Ansaldo S.V.A.5 and a must, the Hanriot HD.1. Two-seater planes could be the Phönix C.I or Hansa-Brandenburg C.I verses the Pomilio PE Ansaldo S.V.A.9 or S.V.A.10

My fantasy list is the aircraft I would love to play in the game but they are way-out there. Many players may not like these as they were not the power house fighters.

We mustn’t forget the one pilot that was most influential in my LOVE of World War One aviation… Snoopy Brown, the famous adversary of the Red Baron. This set could have Snoopy with his many color variation of his famous Sopwith Doghouse.

The problem is I could go on and on with aircraft, I would love to see all of the planes utilized in the Great War eventually produced. I’m just a junky for this stuff.

Jim P cool
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Jim P
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AnakinOU wrote:
I want non-plane stuff.


Anie, what kind of non-plane stuff? Do you want AA Art'y and AA MG? Or trucks and tanks?

Jim P cool
 
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AA, balloons, and other semi-related non-plane stuffs. You know, things that would normally be a part of WWI air battles.
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Ted Kreider
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kduke wrote:

...I think it would be more valuable to make Series 5 have the Hanroit and Aviatik as the fighter component and the Brisfit and Halberstadt CL2 as the 2 seater component.


I think you are dead on with this. The Tripe is the problem child here and holds its place more in the role it captures in our imaginations than any actual historical role it had. I totally agree that Aviatik/Hanriot, plus the 2 seater fighters would add more 'game' value to WoW minis. The reason being that the 2 seater fighters could be expected to maneuver better and be more enjoyable to fly in a dogfight situation than the existing 2 seaters, which I see as more for defending/intercepting in a recon scenario.

Andrea, is it decided yet whether we'll see any more 2 seaters in series 5, 6, etc.?

The thing I find most interesting about the Sopwith Triplane is that it was the inspiration for the Dr 1. Similarly, the SS DI is interesting in that it was a copy of the Nieuport. Ironically, both planes seem to share a part in the copycat game (one was copied, the other was a copy), both had very low production runs, both were unappreciated in different ways and shunted away from the main action (the Tripe went to naval patrol, the SS DI's were used as trainers). In the game, both are B-firing, lower speed, and seem to have been included mostly to reuse maneuver decks from other more significant planes. I think they'd be a match in a minis release, but you know what? I'm much less interested in them than the Hanriot/Aviatik combo. Those two definately tangled with each other in a big way.


image source:http://www.overthefront.com/issues/06_2.html

Hopefully the minis will be more solidly constructed.
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Andrea Angiolino
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Yes, new two-seater will come. Each futire serie will feature either 4 single-seaters or two 2-seaters and two single-seaters.

Speaking of copies... The best seaplane of the war was Macchi M.5. Macchi L.1/L.2 came as a copy of Lohner L.1 (hence the "L"), but from M.3 onward Macchi put so much into it (hence the M.).
 
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Kevin Duke
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They are good looking and interesting planes too... (but rather far down my list of "planes I want for WoW")

thanks

But seriously, I think the "Adriatic War" would make for an interesting game and certainly is something I'd like to read more about.
 
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Ted Kreider
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If you did that mini, you'd have to get a license from Studio Ghibli to do a Porco Rosso version...
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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Well, you are a real expert! Many people heard of his red Savoia S.21, but his wartime Macchi M.5 is far less known.



His Savoia S.21



is actually pretty different from the real S.21.



More similar to Macchi M.33, a racing plane evolved from the old L1/M.5 family.



No wonder if it's red, as all the Italian racing hydroplanes taking part to the Schneider Cup.
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Ted Kreider
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angiolillo wrote:
Well, you are a real expert! Many people heard of his red Savoia S.21, but his wartime Macchi M.5 is far less known.


I'm no expert, I get all my information from cartoons and the internet. That was just a lucky guess, but I'm glad it prompted more information on the subject from you. Porco Rosso hinted at a whole culture of seaplane adventure on the Adriatic, and left me wondering how much was real and how much was fantasy. Obviously, there was something in the real world that it was all based on. After looking up the Machi that you mentioned it reminded me of the movie again and brought up the question of what part of the whole seaplane adventure was true.

If anyone wants to say a few words on this, I'd love to hear it.
 
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Andrea Angiolino
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It is a very interesting period.

A great Austrian naval ace was von Banfield:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/austrhun/banfield.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_von_Banfield

A few Italian ones on seaplanes:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/italy/pierozzi.php

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/italy/calvello.php

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/italy/martinengo.php

At the IAF Museum we still have a Lohner captured during the war (I met Generale Briganti who captured it):
http://www.aeronautica.difesa.it/sitoam/images/TESTO%20LOHNE...



Two great books about Italian aces, including Regia Marina (Italian Royal Navy) ones, are "Gli Assi dell’Aviazione Italiana nella Grande Guerra" by R. Gentilli, A. Iozzi e P. Varriale, in Italian, cheap since published by Ufficio Storico dell’AMI (Historical Office of IAF); the other is the English edition, enriched and more expensive, "Italian Aces of World War I" by Schiffer.

Here Iozzi's drawings from that books. Pierozzi's M.5 reg. n. 7256 (nice insigna):



From top to bottom...
M.5, matr. M 7087, Tenente di Vascello Orazio Pierozzi, 255a Squadriglia, Autumn 1917
M.5, matr. M 7242, Tenente di Vascello Federico Martinengo, 260a Squadriglia, Spring-Summer 1918
M.5, matr. M 7289 (uncertain) S.Ten. di Vascello Umberto Calvello, 260a Squadriglia, Spring-Summer 1918






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