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Heroscape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie» Forums » Rules

Subject: LOS » broken rule? rss

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ketchupgun
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Just started playing this...and the Line of Sight rule seems weird to me.

You look behind your figure's head and see if he/she can "see" the enemy. fine. But if there is a dispute between players, simply "roll a d20 and the higher roll wins" the LOS in question.

So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?
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Robert Ehlers
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I think that the intent of the the dispute roll off is in situations where it is very close and hard to tell. If you are playing with someone who is that big of a jerk that they would say you don't have LOS, when clearly you do, then I would recommend getting some different friends to play the game with.

I've played well over 100 games of heroscape, and never once did I have to do the dice roll off for LOS.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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ketchupgun wrote:
So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?


If a person played that way in the League of Extraordinary HeroScapers' gaming hall, he would be jettisoned from the rear door by staff.
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Todd Pytel
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Yeah, really not much of an issue. The vast majority of the time, you're either behind a wall or ledge and clearly don't have line of sight or else you're firing through other figures, in which case you can easily find some speck of the target zone to shoot at. In dozens of games, I think I've only encountered one or two LOS's that were remotely questionable, and even then my opponent and I could come to an agreement.

I'd note, though, that this is a pretty good reason not to play with some kind of "50% cover penalty" or similar house rules. It's pretty easy to decide whether you can see a speck of the target. It's a lot more debatable deciding exactly what proportion you can see.
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Sphere wrote:
ketchupgun wrote:
So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?


If a person played that way in the League of Extraordinary HeroScapers' gaming hall, he would be jettisoned from the rear door by staff.



Quite correct, Sphere old chap. And after a tour of the inquisitorial chambers, a curse brought down upon what is still recognisable of his unworthy head by the Chaplain.

I remain,

Your Most Humble and Obediant Servant etc...


The Very Reverend Jeremiah Smallpiece
Est. 1849
Chaplain LoEH
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Jon Quinn
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ketchupgun wrote:

So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?


What is to keep a player from disputing every single attack on the ground of LOS?

These 5 things would:

1. It would make game playing a very unpleasant experience

2. Good sportsmanship

3. Common decency

4, A sense of embarrasment

5. He would stop being invited to play (of course, he could still play solitaire and dispute with himself, so that might not entirely stop him),
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Seth Owen
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jwquinn wrote:
ketchupgun wrote:

So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?


What is to keep a player from disputing every single attack on the ground of LOS?


5. He would stop being invited to play (of course, he could still play solitaire and dispute with himself, so that might not entirely stop him),


Like the famous general Braxton Bragg, who supposedly had a long correspondence dispute between himself as a unit commander assigned to a post and himself as the post supply officer which he ended up kicking upstair to the post commander for resolution, to the incredulity of that officer.
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Dale Jordal
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ketchupgun wrote:
Just started playing this...and the Line of Sight rule seems weird to me.

You look behind your figure's head and see if he/she can "see" the enemy. fine. But if there is a dispute between players, simply "roll a d20 and the higher roll wins" the LOS in question.

So what is preventing a player from disputing every single attack on the grounds o LOS and thus get a 50% of not being attacked...because it comes down to a d20 roll?


You are reading too much into this .... I've never seen this nor would I ever expect too.
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ketchupgun
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Well that makes sense. I think this comes from year of playing competitive Magic The Gathering...where any weakness in the game is exploited, and fun isn't really part of it. glad to hear Heroscapers are a much more relaxed group!.

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Seth Owen
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ketchupgun wrote:
Well that makes sense. I think this comes from year of playing competitive Magic The Gathering...where any weakness in the game is exploited, and fun isn't really part of it. glad to hear Heroscapers are a much more relaxed group!.



While usuaally considerd a board game, Heroscape does have some strong miniatures roots with the figures and the naturalistic line-of sight rules and therefore benefits from playing from a traditonal miniatures perspective which emphasizes having a good time, good sportsmanship and a certain indifference to who "won" the battle so long as it was dramatic, closely fought, featured a fair amount of toy soldier herosim and the like.

Miniatures games are very ill-suited to the kind of competitive play you might find among Magic players. Indeed, the whole concept of "combos," which are a valid part of M:TG gaming, would be met with absolute zombie horror among miniatures players and any rules set that allowed such a thing would end up in the trash heap.

Heroscape uses discrete cells for movement and range purposes instead of rulers, but other than that it's closer to a miniatures game than a board game with its line of sight rules and movement rules that use the actual physical characteristics of the models in play and the the changeable terrain.
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Anders Pedersen
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We usually only have a problem with clear line of sight, when firing through jungle pieces. And even then, we usually rule in favor of the defender.
Rolling the d20 is really a last resort kind of thing.
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ketchupgun wrote:
Well that makes sense. I think this comes from year of playing competitive Magic The Gathering...where any weakness in the game is exploited, and fun isn't really part of it. glad to hear Heroscapers are a much more relaxed group!.


I'd kick you out of my group if you were doing anything like this in a game of Magic, as well. If you're not playing for fun, you can find someone else's group to annoy!
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Get a laser pointer. If he is still putting up an arguement, shoot him in the eye with the pointer. devil
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Sphere wrote:

If a person played that way in the League of Extraordinary HeroScapers' gaming hall, he would be jettisoned from the rear door by staff.


Hear, hear!
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Mike zebrowski
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wargamer55 wrote:
Indeed, the whole concept of "combos," which are a valid part of M:TG gaming, would be met with absolute zombie horror among miniatures players and any rules set that allowed such a thing would end up in the trash heap.


Warmachine and Hordes are built on combos.
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ketchupgun
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HuckmanT wrote:
ketchupgun wrote:
Well that makes sense. I think this comes from year of playing competitive Magic The Gathering...where any weakness in the game is exploited, and fun isn't really part of it. glad to hear Heroscapers are a much more relaxed group!.


I'd kick you out of my group if you were doing anything like this in a game of Magic, as well. If you're not playing for fun, you can find someone else's group to annoy!


Whoa! what did I do wrong here!?! Where did I imply I was the one looking for a cheap way of playing! This d20 rule just stood out to me as something I'd want to look out for if I was to start encountering it alot...being accustomed to putting up with that sort of player for many years.

Hmm..I don't think I'd want to be in your group anyways...so there!




(that was unnecessary).
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Seth Owen
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Indeed, the whole concept of "combos," which are a valid part of M:TG gaming, would be met with absolute zombie horror among miniatures players and any rules set that allowed such a thing would end up in the trash heap.


Warmachine and Hordes are built on combos.


I haven't played either of those, but are you sure they are built on "combos" (unbeatable combinations that don't even allow the opposing player a chance to actually play, if the combo comes up? That's the kind of combo that M:TG has, where if the combo gets set in motion the opposing player is helpless to intervene.)

The closet thing in historical miniatures might be players who insist on having armies made up of Old Guard infantry or King Tigers (in unhistorical quantities) but that sort of thing isn't very common in my experience.
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Tim Fiscus
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ketchupgun wrote:
HuckmanT wrote:
ketchupgun wrote:
Well that makes sense. I think this comes from year of playing competitive Magic The Gathering...where any weakness in the game is exploited, and fun isn't really part of it. glad to hear Heroscapers are a much more relaxed group!.


I'd kick you out of my group if you were doing anything like this in a game of Magic, as well. If you're not playing for fun, you can find someone else's group to annoy!


Whoa! what did I do wrong here!?! Where did I imply I was the one looking for a cheap way of playing! This d20 rule just stood out to me as something I'd want to look out for if I was to start encountering it alot...being accustomed to putting up with that sort of player for many years.


I didn't mean "you" as in "Ketchup Gun", but rather the cumulative "you" as in "the jerk pulling this stunt".
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J B
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I've been playing this game since it came out and I think I could count on one hand the number of times I've had to to the d20 roll-off. Probably wouldn't even need the thumb.
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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wargamer55 wrote:
Like the famous general Braxton Bragg, who supposedly had a long correspondence dispute between himself as a unit commander assigned to a post and himself as the post supply officer which he ended up kicking upstair to the post commander for resolution, to the incredulity of that officer.


I'm sure the thought behind that "dispute" was that while Braxton knew he could resolve any dispute between the two hats he wore without a moment's hesitation, he could be found at fault by the post commander for some infraction the "losing hat" was supposed to watchdog without fail.
 
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