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Subject: Discard of Event rss

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Nicholas Jost
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When a card discards from an opponents hand is this treated as a key term? That is, if I discard two events from my opponent does he get two limited one op actions? I'm assuming it _is_ a key term based on the explicit (though not obvious) reference in the rule.
 
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Tim P.
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if you have an event card that you cannot play or do not want to play then you can "discard" it in two ways. this is not like other games when you have to play events as events, regardless if you benefit from it or not. the card is not "discarded" from you hand or given to the other player.

as the rules state if you discard an event card...
Quote:
Designer’s Note: A discarded event will still have occurred, but it clearly had less effect than it did historically.


cards you do not want to play for the event have two uses; firstly as a limited 1 operation card, secondly as your recruitment card for a turn.

my emphasis in the quoted sections are underlined

on page 9 wrote:

6.4 Event Strategy Cards
The play of an Event Strategy Card causes a specific event to occur. Each of the Event Strategy Cards has instructions that state the specific effect. These must be followed exactly (conditioned by the following paragraphs). Where a player receives a card that does not benefit him the cards are graphically coded to denote which player benefits and is not one of the three Mandatory Event Strategy Cards (6.5) then he can discard it (placing it face-up in the discard pile) and note that discards may be used for specific actions (see Discarded Event Strategy Cards below).


here is how to use a discarded event card as a limited op for the side that discards it

see page 10 wrote:

DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS
Players can discard any Strategy Card (other than a Mandatory Event Strategy Card). A discarded Event Card can be used as a Limited 1 Operations Card: it may not be used to Activate Field Generals or Regional Generals for movement or Bombardment, but it may be used to place a PC marker, Activate one Raiding Local Notable or for Recruitment, just as for other Operations Cards).


secondly a card can be "discarded" as a recruitment card

see page 13 wrote:

7.0 RECRUITMENT
New Brigades can be brought into play in three ways:,
(a) They may be placed in the Recruitment Phase of each Game Turn. This method does not require the play of a card.
(b) Both sides can play one Operations or Discard card per turn to bring Recruits into the game unless certain Events are in play. The card is placed on the relevant space on the Player Card to remind you of the one card limit. This action is known as a Grandee Recruitment for the Royalist Player or an Assessment and Sequestration Recruitment for the Parliament Player.




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Charles Vasey
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nickjost wrote:
When a card discards from an opponents hand is this treated as a key term? That is, if I discard two events from my opponent does he get two limited one op actions? I'm assuming it _is_ a key term based on the explicit (though not obvious) reference in the rule.


Does this relate to those cards providing for removal of cards from your opponent's hand?

Removal is removal, it isn't the discarding of an opposing event card in the course of your Campaign Phase. Only in the latter case do you get the limited ops opportunity and it is the discarder who gets the limited op.
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Philip Thomas
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oi_you_nutter wrote:
if you have an event card that you cannot play or do not want to play then you can "discard" it in two ways. this is not like other games when you have to play events as events, regardless if you benefit from it or not. the card is not "discarded" from you hand or given to the other player.

as the rules state if you discard an event card...
Quote:
Designer’s Note: A discarded event will still have occurred, but it clearly had less effect than it did historically.


cards you do not want to play for the event have two uses; firstly as a limited 1 operation card, secondly as your recruitment card for a turn.

my emphasis in the quoted sections are underlined

on page 9 wrote:

6.4 Event Strategy Cards
The play of an Event Strategy Card causes a specific event to occur. Each of the Event Strategy Cards has instructions that state the specific effect. These must be followed exactly (conditioned by the following paragraphs). Where a player receives a card that does not benefit him the cards are graphically coded to denote which player benefits and is not one of the three Mandatory Event Strategy Cards (6.5) then he can discard it (placing it face-up in the discard pile) and note that discards may be used for specific actions (see Discarded Event Strategy Cards below).


here is how to use a discarded event card as a limited op for the side that discards it

see page 10 wrote:

DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS
Players can discard any Strategy Card (other than a Mandatory Event Strategy Card). A discarded Event Card can be used as a Limited 1 Operations Card: it may not be used to Activate Field Generals or Regional Generals for movement or Bombardment, but it may be used to place a PC marker, Activate one Raiding Local Notable or for Recruitment, just as for other Operations Cards).


secondly a card can be "discarded" as a recruitment card

see page 13 wrote:

7.0 RECRUITMENT
New Brigades can be brought into play in three ways:,
(a) They may be placed in the Recruitment Phase of each Game Turn. This method does not require the play of a card.
(b) Both sides can play one Operations or Discard card per turn to bring Recruits into the game unless certain Events are in play. The card is placed on the relevant space on the Player Card to remind you of the one card limit. This action is known as a Grandee Recruitment for the Royalist Player or an Assessment and Sequestration Recruitment for the Parliament Player.







All very true, but completely irrelevant to the OP's question which is "Can discards caused by the play of an enemy event [like Empty Treasury] useable in the same way as normal discards by player choice (which take the form you describe above)."

The answer is of course no. It would be bizarre if (say) Empty Treasury caused extra Royalist recruitment!
 
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Tim P.
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Philip Thomas wrote:
oi_you_nutter wrote:
if you have an event card that you cannot play or do not want to play then you can "discard" it in two ways. this is not like other games when you have to play events as events, regardless if you benefit from it or not. the card is not "discarded" from you hand or given to the other player.

as the rules state if you discard an event card...
Quote:
Designer’s Note: A discarded event will still have occurred, but it clearly had less effect than it did historically.


cards you do not want to play for the event have two uses; firstly as a limited 1 operation card, secondly as your recruitment card for a turn.

my emphasis in the quoted sections are underlined

on page 9 wrote:

6.4 Event Strategy Cards
The play of an Event Strategy Card causes a specific event to occur. Each of the Event Strategy Cards has instructions that state the specific effect. These must be followed exactly (conditioned by the following paragraphs). Where a player receives a card that does not benefit him the cards are graphically coded to denote which player benefits and is not one of the three Mandatory Event Strategy Cards (6.5) then he can discard it (placing it face-up in the discard pile) and note that discards may be used for specific actions (see Discarded Event Strategy Cards below).


here is how to use a discarded event card as a limited op for the side that discards it

see page 10 wrote:

DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS
Players can discard any Strategy Card (other than a Mandatory Event Strategy Card). A discarded Event Card can be used as a Limited 1 Operations Card: it may not be used to Activate Field Generals or Regional Generals for movement or Bombardment, but it may be used to place a PC marker, Activate one Raiding Local Notable or for Recruitment, just as for other Operations Cards).


secondly a card can be "discarded" as a recruitment card

see page 13 wrote:

7.0 RECRUITMENT
New Brigades can be brought into play in three ways:,
(a) They may be placed in the Recruitment Phase of each Game Turn. This method does not require the play of a card.
(b) Both sides can play one Operations or Discard card per turn to bring Recruits into the game unless certain Events are in play. The card is placed on the relevant space on the Player Card to remind you of the one card limit. This action is known as a Grandee Recruitment for the Royalist Player or an Assessment and Sequestration Recruitment for the Parliament Player.







All very true, but completely irrelevant to the OP's question which is "Can discards caused by the play of an enemy event [like Empty Treasury] useable in the same way as normal discards by player choice (which take the form you describe above)."

The answer is of course no. It would be bizarre if (say) Empty Treasury caused extra Royalist recruitment!


ooops, my mistake....sort of.


the OP mentions discard and discard is used in 6.4 Removal of Strategy Cards, which could be the cause of the confusion.
 
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Tim P.
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ref 6.4 on page 10, my emphasis in bold/italics
Quote:

REMOVAL OF STRATEGY CARDS
Where an event calls for one or more Strategy Cards to be removed from a player’s hand, the player who played the event randomly chooses which cards are removed. Any cards stored from a previous turn are immune from removal. Any card that is removed from a player’s hand in this way is discarded after being examined by both players. Exception: If a Mandatory Event Strategy Card is drawn it must be immediately played (see below), and is considered to have been played by the player from whose hand it was drawn.


Note: that Mandatory Cards are immediately played if they are removed, see the Exception on the last line above.

The use of 'discard' here is not the same as the act of DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS (also in 6.4). and taking 5.5 Campaign Phase into account wrt that Forced removals of cards do not count toward the six card plays required except for Mandatory Cards. When an event card is played as a discarded Event it counts as a card play.

Therefore except for Mandatory Cards; any removed cards are viewed by both players yet are not played in any form by either player; they are simply put in the discard pile and no not count as a card play.

Please confirm that my summary is correct.
 
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robin goblin
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Sounds right, though more convoluted than necessary!
 
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Nicholas Jost
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Charles Vasey wrote:
nickjost wrote:
When a card discards from an opponents hand is this treated as a key term? That is, if I discard two events from my opponent does he get two limited one op actions? I'm assuming it _is_ a key term based on the explicit (though not obvious) reference in the rule.


Does this relate to those cards providing for removal of cards from your opponent's hand?

Removal is removal, it isn't the discarding of an opposing event card in the course of your Campaign Phase. Only in the latter case do you get the limited ops opportunity and it is the discarder who gets the limited op.


The card references 6.4. 6.4 says:
Any card that is removed from a player's hand in this way is discarded after being examined by both players.

That is, your rule says differently. If this is the ruling that's fine, but the rule cited by the card specifically says discard (emphasis is mine).
 
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Charles Vasey
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nickjost wrote:
Charles Vasey wrote:
nickjost wrote:
When a card discards from an opponents hand is this treated as a key term? That is, if I discard two events from my opponent does he get two limited one op actions? I'm assuming it _is_ a key term based on the explicit (though not obvious) reference in the rule.


Does this relate to those cards providing for removal of cards from your opponent's hand?

Removal is removal, it isn't the discarding of an opposing event card in the course of your Campaign Phase. Only in the latter case do you get the limited ops opportunity and it is the discarder who gets the limited op.


The card references 6.4. 6.4 says:
Any card that is removed from a player's hand in this way is discarded after being examined by both players.

That is, your rule says differently. If this is the ruling that's fine, but the rule cited by the card specifically says discard (emphasis is mine).


I don't think that it does, if you re-read what I wrote "Removal is removal, it isn't the discarding of an opposing event card in the course of your Campaign Phase." you'll see that the removal in this case is not the same as discarding-for-an-Op-in-your-Campaign-Phase, emphasis mine. There may be many ways of discarding, only one of which earns you the limited activation (ops, raids, PC placement). Removal is not one of those ways.
 
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Charles Vasey
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It may help to read the whole section on the limited use of discards:

6.4 “Where a player receives a card that does not benefit him—the cards are graphically coded to denote which player benefits—and is not one of the three Mandatory Event Strategy Cards (6.5) then he can discard it (placing it face-up in the discard pile)—and note that discards may be used for specific actions (see “Discarded Event Strategy Cards below).”

Which section states;

“DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS
Players can discard any Strategy Card (other than a Mandatory Event Strategy Card). A discarded Event Card can be used as a Limited 1 Operations Card: it may not be used to Activate Field Generals or Regional Generals for movement or Bombardment, but it may be used to place a PC marker, Activate one Raiding Local Notable or for Recruitment, just as for other Operations Cards).”

So when I play a "removal card" on my opponent I do not meet the terms of the first section because I am playing a card that benefits me. My opponent does not meet the terms of the first section because he is not even playing a card, and I remove and discard his cards, not him.


 
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Dan Fielding
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Geez.

So a card that only applies to the other player is defined first as being "unplayable."

Somewhere it says that unplayable cards are then/also defined as "Discard(ed) cards."

Then somewhere else is says that "Discard(ed) Cards" may in fact be "played" either as the single card placed on the Recruitment space, or as an Operations card having a restrictions upon its use.

Geez.
 
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Joshua Buergel
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Dan,

I don't really understand your comment. The word "unplayable" doesn't appear anywhere in the UKC rules, and you're the first person to mention it in this thread. If there's confusion about discarded versus removed cards, I'd be happy to clarify things. The rules are quite precise, discarded cards are cards that a player uses as a minor activation in place of the card's normal effect, while things like "Empty Treasury" remove cards (Empty Treasury: "Randomly remove up to two Royalist Strategy Cards, if available (see 6.4)").
 
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Dan Fielding
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>discarded cards are cards that a player uses

You don't see how that is an oxymoron?

The rules are NOT at all clear.

The implication that one might desire to play one's own Event Cards as "Limited Operations Cards" [which term ought to be defined, ie indexed] is too subtle. Otherwise, the only cards you can't play & thus must discard are enemy event cards. Except discarded cards CAN be played... its all very circular.

***

We are having the same sort of problem with the Recruitment rules. You should state clearly that there is a Recruitment Phase with one set of rules, and an optional "recruitment by card play" (which has different rules for each player, except that confusingly, those rules are partially the same as the rules for the Recruitment Phase). You have mashed them together in the same rules section. Again, its all very circular.

The Operations cards saying "recruit up to the maximum" is bizarre. AFAI can tell its always 2. So why don't the cards just say up to 2?
 
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Charles Vasey
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Gronak wrote:
>discarded cards are cards that a player uses

You don't see how that is an oxymoron?

The rules are NOT at all clear.

The implication that one might desire to play one's own Event Cards as "Limited Operations Cards" [which term ought to be defined, ie indexed] is too subtle. Otherwise, the only cards you can't play & thus must discard are enemy event cards. Except discarded cards CAN be played... its all very circular.

***

We are having the same sort of problem with the Recruitment rules. You should state clearly that there is a Recruitment Phase with one set of rules, and an optional "recruitment by card play" (which has different rules for each player, except that confusingly, those rules are partially the same as the rules for the Recruitment Phase). You have mashed them together in the same rules section. Again, its all very circular.

The Operations cards saying "recruit up to the maximum" is bizarre. AFAI can tell its always 2. So why don't the cards just say up to 2?


Thanks for the drafting comments. The maximum refers to the possibility raised by a tester that you may be able to only recruit one brigade because that's all you have or all the oportunities that exist. If you've only one brigade he reckoned you could not recruit two and therefore could not use the card. Hence the present drafting.

The discarded card is one that the player has already used, he discards it by using it in its limited ops guise.

The recruitment rules were redrafted a number of times until the testers approved them. They seem to work for a lot of folks but clearly not for you.

however, we can only give you the answers to your questions, the rules are not going to be substantially redrafted at this stage.


 
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Dan Fielding
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>redrafted a number of times until the testers approved them

Difficult sections should be given to people totally unfamiliar with what it is trying to communicate.

Section headings need to be phrased so that people unfamiliar with the rules can find something while skimming them. A section titled "Royalist Grandee Recruitment Card" is going to be ignored unless I have a card of that title in front of me. It is not going to be read when I am looking for HOW to recruit with cards.

Sec 7.1 is misplaced & misleadingly titled. It contains special cases, not the most commonly needed. 7.2 should be the first sub-section because it describes the general method. 7.0 a) & b) do not reference a particular rule section although c) does.

The first para of 7.3.1 and 7.3.2 seem identical. A "closer reading" shows a difference in allowing placement of regional generals... but no, the last sentence in 7.3.2 allows it... but no, the restriction to regional only is not present... the word "any" could have been included to help make the distinction -- not to mention putting the sentence in the same place in both paras so they could be scanned & compared.

The space spent on near-duplicate paras could have been used for a tabular layout that made the differences apparant.

Also 7.3.2 does not contain the restriction that generals must be placed per 7.2.3 -- so is there some other method allowed ? gotta search the rules to find out...
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Joshua Buergel
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Gronak wrote:
>discarded cards are cards that a player uses

You don't see how that is an oxymoron?

The rules are NOT at all clear.

The implication that one might desire to play one's own Event Cards as "Limited Operations Cards" [which term ought to be defined, ie indexed] is too subtle. Otherwise, the only cards you can't play & thus must discard are enemy event cards. Except discarded cards CAN be played... its all very circular.


The rule in 6.4 states:

"DISCARDING EVENT STRATEGY CARDS
Players can discard any Strategy Card (other than a Mandatory Event Strategy Card)."

It then goes on to explain what you can do with discarded Event cards. There is no restriction in the rule about which Event cards can be discarded, yours or your opponent's, and you can thus discard any Event that you don't want to use. I guess you're responded to the opening paragraph of 6.4 in your confusion? That describes the general pattern of play, while the specifics for each situation are under the sub-headings.
 
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