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Catan» Forums » General

Subject: Call to action: SoC images to be deleted from Wikipedia as copyright infrignment rss

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Piotr Konieczny
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On the off chance that somebody from Mayfair is reading this and would like to see the Wikipedia article on SoC still illustrated, please consider posting with permission at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Settlers_of_Catan_images

On the related note, yes, under US laws probably 99% of images on BGG are copyright infringements (Derivative works of copyrighted objects...)...
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AKA Halston Thrombeaux
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Wow, it seems like the guy calling for deletion just likes to wave his knowledge of copyright laws around on issues that the actual copyright holder wouldn't care about at all shake
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Blue Fox
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crazy old white dudes
 
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Dan Norder
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toku42 wrote:
Wow, it seems like the guy calling for deletion just likes to wave his knowledge of copyright laws around on issues that the actual copyright holder wouldn't care about at all :shake:


Heaven forbid people actually follow the law and respect the owner's rights n the process... And since when in our society did knowledge become an insult and ignorance be held up as if it were a badge of honor?
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ŁṲÎS̈
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F*** it! Do it LIVE!
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Didn't know what to spend all this sweet GG on, so I bought the overtext.
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dannorder wrote:
toku42 wrote:
Wow, it seems like the guy calling for deletion just likes to wave his knowledge of copyright laws around on issues that the actual copyright holder wouldn't care about at all shake


Heaven forbid people actually follow the law and respect the owner's rights n the process... And since when in our society did knowledge become an insult and ignorance be held up as if it were a badge of honor?


Are the images hurting Tueber in any way shape or form? I'm willing to bet the proliferation of catan images around the internet only affect his wallet in a positive direction.

Selling homemade copies is one thing, posting pictures online is another entirely.

I completely agree with toku42 on this.
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Rob Rob
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There's no provable harm to the copyright holder. There is a long history of gamers playing large sized (even life sized) versions of boardgames at Cons. What can they complain about, the increase in game sales? zombie
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Jeremy Blowers
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Ever consider that all the images on BGG and Wikipedia etc.. Help promote the product and the Hobby??

Post pictures of my products WHEREEVER you like ... PLEASE.

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Jim U
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Prokonsul Piotrus wrote:
On the related note, yes, under US laws probably 99% of images on BGG are copyright infringements (Derivative works of copyrighted objects...)...

99% of the images on BGG are protected under fair use doctrine.
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Piotr Konieczny
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Wikimedia Commons cannot accept fair use, since fair use is not international, and this project is. Fair use in any way is a legal nightmare, and there is a consensus among the interested legal experts that nine times out of ten, a case revolving around fair use will end up with the fair use being invalidated and the person claiming they had the right to use it, paying the damages...

Yes, US copyright law (and international law) is close to evil. And it harms not only the end users, like us, gamers, but often, the companies themselves: as Jeremy noted, they like the viral marketing of their products... but very few know how to do it legally. Legally means two thing, basically:
* a company should put on their website and on their products a note that it allows some taking and distribution of their photos under free licenses (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_content) and if they want fans to make mods (such as the giant catan 3d versions and so on), other modifications. Note that free licenses such as Creative Commons are detailed enough that they can still protect the commercial rights of the producer, while allowing fans to legally make (noncommercial) photos, mods and such.
* anybody taking a photo and uploading it online should clarify that the photo is under a free license
If it seems like a hassle, blame to lawmakers, and understand that lack of the above will preclude, for example, illustrating the game article on various law-conscious sites. If you are still annoyed, there are organizations involved in trying to change the existing laws, see links leading from the above Wikipedia article on "free content" for more details.

Now, back to the original topic: if any Mayfair Games person is reading it, and would like the article on SoC on Wikipedia (which currently was gutted as far as illustrations are concerned: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlers_of_Catan) to be decently illustrated, please consider either uploading your own photos to Wikipedia (with a statement that you are the copyright owner of the images in question and products on them) or (much better) giving official permission for the photos of your game to be under a free license. This applies to any other game designers out there.
 
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Erich Volkert

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Is anyone on this thread a copyright lawyer? I am not, but I have researched the issue a bit, and I'm confused by this thread.

Would someone please correct me where I go wrong...

The person who takes the photo is the copyright holder (of that particular image), and has the right to do whatever he or she wants to do with that image - subject to certain constraints. The biggest and most important is that the 'new' image cannot make profit if it contains someone else's copyrighted material. The most glaring infringement would be something like taking a photo of a poster and then selling your photo.

From Wikipedia:

Several exclusive rights typically attach to the holder of a copyright:

to produce copies or reproductions of the work and to sell those copies (mechanical rights; including, sometimes, electronic copies: distribution rights)
to import or export the work
to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
to perform or display the work publicly (performance rights)
to sell or assign these rights to others
to transmit or display by radio or video (broadcasting rights)
The phrase “exclusive right” means that only the copyright holder is free

Given that the photos on wikipedia were contributed by the appropriate copyright holders, that most photos showed people engaged in playing the game, and that the images were not used to make profit, I cannot understand how copyright was being violated...

Can someone please clarify?
 
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Jim U
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Prokonsul Piotrus wrote:
nine times out of ten, a case revolving around fair use will end up with the fair use being invalidated ...

Cases revolving around fair use of materials which are not actually used fairly that actually reach a court will end up with the fair use being invalidated.

99.999999% of materials legitimately protected under fair use are never brought before a court. The fair use of such materials is either not questioned by the copyright holder, or the copyright holder is able to intimidate and coerce the user into removing the materials without involving a court.


Prokonsul Piotrus wrote:
Wikimedia Commons cannot accept fair use, since fair use is not international...

Well, I live in Iran. Since your post has appeared on my computer here in Iran, this discussion is covered by Iranian law. By posting views that disagree with my own, you have insulted me, oppressed my family, slandered my religion, humiliated my culture, persecuted my country, and terrorized my people. You must now cut off your own left hand, the left hand of your first wife, the left hand of your eldest child, and the left hoof of your best cow. Back or front hoof is fine, it matters not to me; I am a reasonable man. Please ship the materials packed in ice to

M'Balz Es'hari
ساختمان اداره پست شهرستان پاکدشت
روز پنجشنبه دی‌ماه جاری با حضور
مرتضی تمدن» استاندار تهران افتتاح شد.
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Piotr Konieczny
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EasyESV wrote:
I cannot understand how copyright was being violated... Can someone please clarify?


While I am not a lawyer, years of hanging out around copyright concious people have taught me that what it boils down to is that a lot of items are copyright protected to an extent that prevents you from distributing a photo of them. This applies to screenshots, photos of modern art, and yes, games. You CAN take a photo - the copyright to it belongs to you and the artist(s) - but you cannot legally publish it without the artists explicit permission (here is, by the way, were free licenses come through, as they give the artist a legal way to say "you can republish my works under certain conditions and don't have to try to contact me to get my permission which is required under traditional copyright").

Please note that the current copyright laws were created due to lobbying of big media corporations (Disney and such) and indeed they don't benefit anybody but them. If you think they are evil, I described above how we can deal with it (spreading knowledge about importance of free licenses and supporting the Free Culture Movement, primarily).

Some links of interest for those who want to read a little bit more:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Derivative_works
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Freedom_of_panorama#United_States
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Fan_art
And of course, this great book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Culture_(book)
Let me quote from it:
"There has never been a time in history when more of our 'culture' was as 'owned' as it is now. And yet there has never been a time when the concentration of power to control the uses of culture has been as unquestioningly accepted as it is now."

Bottom line: if you are a game producer, and you want your products well and legally illustrated and promoted by fans, use a free license. Among other things, they are free to use, too :)
 
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