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Subject: Throne room and actions rss

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Dave Kudzma
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The rules seem contradictory to me, and perhaps that's just my perception.

My initial impression:

If I throne room something with actions such as a market, I get 2 draws + 2 actions + 2 buys + 2 coins

One of our players pointed out that the rules say one copy has to be completely resolved before the other, which would mean:

+1 draw +1 action, and I guess later +1 buy +1 coin

THEN

+1 draw +1 action, and I guess later +1 buy +1 coin

Which is correct?

The former seems correct but the rules muddle this a bit.
 
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Everett Scheer
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just so we are clear, +actions add to the maximum actions you can take that turn. It doesn't force you to play an action immediately. So in essence the throne room-market would be:
draw a card, add +1 to your actions, coins, and buys for this turn
then draw a card, add +1 to your actions, coins, and buys for this turn

This would net (from before the throne room to after the market): 2 drawn cards, and +2 to to your actions, coins, and buys for this turn while using one action.
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Dylan Shakespeare
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...therefore allowing you to play two additional actions that turn.
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Dave Kudzma
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So the only immediate action is to draw, the rest accrue; which is as I thought.

I'd have never doubted it, but the person who "corrected" us as GM'd events at different cons, so they are VERY trustworthy.

The rules are still ambiguous, but this simpler interpretation is more in line with the spirit of the game.
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Everett Scheer
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locusshifter wrote:
So the only immediate action is to draw, the rest accrue; which is as I thought.

I'd have never doubted it, but the person who "corrected" us as GM'd events at different cons, so they are VERY trustworthy.

The rules are still ambiguous, but this simpler interpretation is more in line with the spirit of the game.


Just to be clear, the addition of the action or buy or coin is immediate. The throne roomed actions are also taken one at a time and could matter. IE if you throne room-thief each player would reveal their top 2 cards and you trash/gain treasure, then repeat.
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Adam Smiles
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locusshifter wrote:
So the only immediate action is to draw, the rest accrue; which is as I thought.

I'd have never doubted it, but the person who "corrected" us as GM'd events at different cons, so they are VERY trustworthy.

The rules are still ambiguous, but this simpler interpretation is more in line with the spirit of the game.


Well, trustworthy people make mistakes. That's how rules errors get propogated. One "trustworthy" person makes a mistake and then everyone who learns the games from them, goes on and teaches the game from how they were taught and not from reading the rules.

I don't think the rules are ambiguous. The rules indicate which things accrue and which things are carried out immediately. The Throne Room - Market isn't the best example of this because the net effect of how to carry out the card is the same.

A better example of fully carrying a single card before moving to the next would be Throne Room - Spy. You draw a card, increase your action count by 1, and then reveal and discard/return the top card on everyone's deck. Then the virual second spy is played and you draw, incease your action count and reveal discard/return again. The important point is that you don't draw 2 cards, add 2 actions and then reveal 2 cards. You need to reveal the top card between the draws, then move on to the last reveal.
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Dave Kudzma
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Yes, I like the way you put Adam, and that will make things clear.

The ambiguity that I mean is in the Throne room section, that if taken on it's own without referencing the section on draws, actions, etc that's earlier in the rules, could be VERY misleading.

It's like you said, you HAVE to draw, and everything else just gives a tick to the action, buy, coin counter for use during the appropriate phase.
 
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Kirkwb
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The rules first tell you that +1 Action and +1 Buy are added to your turn, not taken immediately. That's pretty clear from the beginning.

I don't think they need to repeat when describing Throne Room. You can't read "B" without taking "A" into consideration or forgetting that you read "A" already.


 
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Jason Gische
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kirkwb wrote:
The rules first tell you that +1 Action and +1 Buy are added to your turn, not taken immediately. That's pretty clear from the beginning.

I don't think they need to repeat when describing Throne Room. You can't read "B" without taking "A" into consideration or forgetting that you read "A" already.


I agree that, when taken as a whole, the rules are clear.

However, as someone who creates training materials for a living, I would point out that it is often smart to review earlier material when you are providing new material that might seem to conflict with the older information, when taken without context. It wouldn't have been that difficult to add a couple of examples to the Throne Room discussion in the rules to make this abundantly clear.
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tim
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gische wrote:
It wouldn't have been that difficult to add a couple of examples to the Throne Room discussion in the rules to make this abundantly clear.
Reviewing earlier information needs to be done carefully so as not to add or change that information. Examples also need to be done very carefully and very clearly. Reviewing information and bad examples are often problems with the rules in a game. Instead of making it better they can make it worse.
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