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Subject: You conservatives are screwed now! Neener, neener, neener! rss

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For your edification I present a couple of excerpts from how the Democratic majority plans to finish the job of railroading America into socialism and securing the government's position as the be-all, end-all for survival in the new United Socialist States of America.

My thanks to Dave Obey the illustrious chairman of the Committee of Appropriations for this bastard child of abuse.

First up we have this specious title:

American Recovery and Reinvestment Bill of 2009

Words have power you see... this is NOT a redistribution of wealth... no, it's an investment plan! There. Don't you feel better now?

How about energy? The committee decided that it was better to count on the literacy levels of the public to remain poor and actually fund one feature of this abomination twice. Here they are:

$32 billion to transform the nation’s energy transmission, distribution, and production systems by allowing for a smarter and better grid and focusing investment in renewable technology.

Not sure what that means, but it sounds important. So important that it appeared under the Clean, Efficient Energy section and then later in the document we read this:

Reliable, Efficient Electricity Grid: $11 billion for research and development, pilot projects, and federal matching funds for the Smart Grid Investment Program to modernize the electricity grid making it more efficient, secure, and reliable and build new power lines to transmit clean, renewable energy from sources throughout the nation.

Why not just say it? We're gonna put $42 Billion into this energy thingie and we're still not gonna tell you exactly what it is beyond the building of some more transmission lines... which was gonna happen anyway... except now, since we're coughing up the dough (after having purloined it from you... well, not you, the 95% of poor America, but from them, those rich bastards) we get to decide who gets what and who is allowed to steal how much.

Next up:

TRANSFORMING OUR ECONOMY WITH SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY

Sound spendy? It is.

Broadband to Give Every Community Access to the Global Economy
• Wireless and Broadband Grants: $6 billion for broadband and wireless services in underserved areas to strengthen the economy and provide business and job opportunities in every section of America with benefits to e-commerce, education, and healthcare. For every dollar invested in broadband the economy sees a ten-fold return on that investment


Thank God! Now the under served farm boys, ranch hands and rural meth labs will be able to get internet porn and access to the Wii online community. Larry Flynt gets the last laugh on this one.

Actually, I used to think that if there was a good enough market in under served communities for more broadband the providers would exploit it. Now I see the light... American citizens pay for it and then the providers get to reap the benefits... with certain stipulations no doubt. Let's all move to the country, we can still get BGG with lightning fast downloads of the ads!

Creating Small Business Opportunity

Ah! Now this sounds like a good heading. What do we have...

• Small Business Credit: $430 million for new direct lending and loan guarantee authorities to make loans more attractive to lenders and free up capital. The number of loans guaranteed under the SBA’s 7(a) business loan program was down 57% in the first quarter of this year compared to last.

Hey! Wait a minute. Isn't that item saying that the gov't is just going to cover the bottom line for the lenders? Didn't we just give those banks about $800 billion the other day? Well, whatever... it's hard for me to imagine that anyone would actually abuse this type of program. Right? Plus, it's not even a billion bucks.

DTV Conversion Coupons: $650 million to continue the coupon program to enable American households to convert from analog television transmission to digital transmission.

Uhhh... what's this? $650 million bucks so a few thousand people can watch better TV? And didn't we already give those rural dipshits broadband to the tune of $6 Billion a little while ago?

Well, I guess it's okay. After all, hardly anybody is going to replace their old TV and farmers are too stupid to download any of the numerous free software packages that will allow them to watch free TV on their $6 billion worth of broadband.

Besides, this is America under Democratic rule... it makes perfect sense to spend $200 million more bucks for TV converters than we're spending for loan guarantees to create new jobs. I wonder... where do they make those HDTV converters? Kansas? Or China?

How about something that makes sense? Here it is:

Bureau of Indian Affairs: $500 million to address maintenance backlogs at schools, dams, detention and law enforcement facilities, and over 24,000 miles of roads. BIA schools alone have an over $1 billion construction and maintenance backlog including shamefully unsafe conditions.

Not bad... $500 Million. So I guess Native American living conditions don't quite rate up there with TV, but you take what you can get.

I suppose I could go on endlessly about how endlessly fucked up this proposal is. It's fairly long, almost completely idiotic, addresses nothing in the specific and everything in broad sweeping language that hides whatever the Committee is actually cooking up and finally.... this proposal is nothing less than the Democratic majority laying out how exactly they plan to put their foot on the throat of the basic robust and successful nature of the American economy and transform it into a socialist vision.

I'll leave you with this gem:

• Training Primary Care Providers: $600 million to address shortages and prepare our country for universal healthcare by training primary healthcare providers including doctors, dentists, and nurses as well as helping pay medical school expenses for students who agree to practice in underserved communities through the National Health Service Corps.

Gosh. And we haven't even had the debate yet on universal healthcare. Yet these people are going to spend $600 million to get the workers ready for it?

Shouldn't we have a say in this first?

It's an interesting document. The Republicans can do little to stop it. I wonder what Obama will do when this ticking bomb hits his desk on Tuesday.
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John So-And-So
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Yawn. A total of $51.1 billion by your count, we just spent literally fifteen times as much on the bank bailout.

Your hand-wringing about those spendy liberals would be a lot more convincing if Republicans hadn't just made themselves the most insolvent administration in American history.
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CHAPEL
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CapAp wrote:
A total of $51.1 billion


That's 3 months in Iraq, and we've been there how long now? Yes, the conservatives are all about not spending our money.

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TheLightSarcastic wrote:
Clearly, this money would be better spent on contractors and mercenaries in Iraq.

Actually, the television conversion thing is pretty asinine. But we must have our bread and circuses, neh?

As for universal healthcare, I say we as a nation have the debate, and then vote. I know which result I'm betting on. We can work out a wager, if you like, when the bill hits the fan.


Gen, this isn't the budget proposal. It's in addition to that. We already have a defense allotment in the budget.

Are you really okay with the TV thing? In my view it's criminal.

As for universal healthcare, how do you feel about paying for training people for something we haven't even gotten the basic discussions done on yet? I think the docs and nurses and administrators would have better things to do.



Cappy wrote:
Yawn. A total of $51.1 billion by your count, we just spent literally fifteen times as much on the bank bailout.

Your hand-wringing about those spendy liberals would be a lot more convincing if Republicans hadn't just made themselves the most insolvent administration in American history.


Take the time Cappy and read the bill. I selected out far less than 10% of the proposals. It's a lot closer to a Trillion dollars.

And I see, yet again, you confuse conservatives with the Republican party. The proposal Obey drafted is clearly socialist in virtually every respect. The Democratic party, if it approves this beast will demonstrate that their party is a socialist one. So far, the Republican party of the last 10 years or so hasn't settled one way or the other what they represent.

Lastly, I wholly disapproved of the bank bailout and I don't approve of the impending auto bailout either.
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MWChapel wrote:
CapAp wrote:
A total of $51.1 billion


That's 3 months in Iraq, and we've been there how long now? Yes, the conservatives are all about not spending our money.



Ah. That makes sense. So what you're saying is that since you believe the government wasted money in Iraq that makes it just dandy for the new administration to waste money on their folly?

Typical liberal response... "he did it first!"
 
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CHAPEL
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DWTripp wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
CapAp wrote:
A total of $51.1 billion


That's 3 months in Iraq, and we've been there how long now? Yes, the conservatives are all about not spending our money.



Ah. That makes sense. So what you're saying is that since you believe the government wasted money in Iraq that makes it just dandy for the new administration to waste money on their folly?

Typical liberal response... "he did it first!"



No, wasting money is spending 10x as much on "nothing" compared to spending 10x less on something useful.

I am not sure what your definition of "wasting" money is, but it doesn't match mine.

"Iraq is money well spent"...typical Conservative diatribe.

Conservative aren't "screwed", they've been screwed for a long time.
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Actually, I have to say that while this ridiculously expensive plan sounds like another way to further bankrupt America, it's no worse (or bigger) than the equally ridiculously expensive bank bailout that Republicans (and most Democrats too, to be fair) thought was such a good idea just a couple of months ago. At least, with Obama's stooopidly enormous expenditure of money we don't have, the wealth (or cheaply printed fake dollars, to be more exact) will be spread to more of the common folk, if just barely, than the Bush bailout dollars were.

I still seeth about the financial institution bailout simply because of the astounding hypocrisy that surrounded it. Those investment houses knew what they were doing wasn't financially sound, but they also knew that what they were doing was so hugely tied to the country's financial health that the government would have no choice but to bail them out, and the vast majority of the individuals at the management levels of these firms appears to have made off with a fortune, and no jail time. Frankly, I am totally and completely disgusted with the government's handling of these situations. Where the fuck do people think this money is coming from? angry
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DWTripp wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
CapAp wrote:
A total of $51.1 billion


That's 3 months in Iraq, and we've been there how long now? Yes, the conservatives are all about not spending our money.



Ah. That makes sense. So what you're saying is that since you believe the government wasted money in Iraq that makes it just dandy for the new administration to waste money on their folly?

Typical liberal response... "he did it first!"


Moral relativism has been given the green light by fans of the right. Please see the thread on Gitmo and the treatment of detainees.

-MMM
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Octavian wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
CapAp wrote:
A total of $51.1 billion


That's 3 months in Iraq, and we've been there how long now? Yes, the conservatives are all about not spending our money.



Ah. That makes sense. So what you're saying is that since you believe the government wasted money in Iraq that makes it just dandy for the new administration to waste money on their folly?

Typical liberal response... "he did it first!"


Moral relativism has been given the green light by fans of the right. Please see the thread on Gitmo and the treatment of detainees.

-MMM


So you've researched the chronology of moral relativism? And have proven for all time that it was conservatives who first excused the actions of their peer group by suggesting it was no worse than what another group did?

This is maybe the one time I really, really want one of you hackneyed liberal types to provide a link to back up your assertion.

Like Chapel, you have no outrage on the flagrant abuse of power and the willingness of our elected officials to suck the life out of the American economy unless it's "them other guys" who you can blame it on.

The RSP liberal mindset is a microscopic look at why America's economy is rough, you guys would rather toe the party line and point fingers at Republicans than stand up and declare that the power-hungry politicians of BOTH parties are thieves, liars and criminals.

Put down the Kool-Aid Matthew, this isn't about political parties... it's about your future as well as mine.

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Like DW said, don't confuse (fiscal) conservatives with the Republican party.

Yes, it's possible to agree with the bailouts but not this bill or vice versa. But if you disagree with both, at least you can't be accused of "towing the party line". Right or wrong, I like being able to claim and verify that my views aren't a direct reflection of some political party's platform. For the record, I'm against the spending in this bill as well as all the bailouts past, present, and future. There is no moral relativism or hypocrisy in that stance as far as I can tell.
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Quote:
DTV Conversion Coupons: $650 million to continue the coupon program to enable American households to convert from analog television transmission to digital transmission.

Uhhh... what's this? $650 million bucks so a few thousand people can watch better TV? And didn't we already give those rural dipshits broadband to the tune of $6 Billion a little while ago?

Well, I guess it's okay. After all, hardly anybody is going to replace their old TV and farmers are too stupid to download any of the numerous free software packages that will allow them to watch free TV on their $6 billion worth of broadband.

Besides, this is America under Democratic rule... it makes perfect sense to spend $200 million more bucks for TV converters than we're spending for loan guarantees to create new jobs. I wonder... where do they make those HDTV converters? Kansas? Or China?


I've got to say, this isn't quite as ridiculous as it sounds - the switch to digital broadcast television isn't about offering HD, it's about freeing up valuable wireless spectrum that was being used inefficiently for analogue TV broadcasts. Digital TV packs the same amount of programming into a fraction of the bandwidth, and the government made almost $20 billion by auctioning off the excess bandwidth. In light of the fact that the government is still making a hefty profit, giving away coupons to ease the transition makes perfect sense.
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DWTripp wrote:
For your edification I present a couple of excerpts from how the Democratic majority plans to finish the job of railroading America into socialism and securing the government's position as the be-all, end-all for survival in the new United Socialist States of America.



Maybe the very idea of state-operated solidarity is far from your political view, but the only socialist thing in there is universal care.
Obama might seem like a left-wing activist to you, but a socialist he is not.
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TheLightSarcastic wrote:
I was merely hinting at the fact that there can be no cries of 'foul!' from the right when it was their very own absurd spending that got them kicked to the curb so sneaky liberals could craft budgets like this one.

You might have a point in that the actual elected politicians don't have a legitimate position from which to complain. But the fiscal conservatives who didn't vote for those people and were opposed to previous absurd spending can certainly feel good opposing this as well.
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TheLightSarcastic wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:

You might have a point in that the actual elected politicians don't have a legitimate position from which to complain. But the fiscal conservatives who didn't vote for those people and were opposed to previous absurd spending can certainly feel good opposing this as well.


Very true. But the alleged fiscal conservatives I talk politics with almost always defend drunken spending from 'their guys,' with the exception of the bailouts.

If they want fiscal conservatives, they should try electing some. I wouldn't mind.


Well then those guys suck. You wouldn't mind them trying to elect some or you wouldn't mind them electing some? I'm guessing the former.
 
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jarredscott78 wrote:
TheLightSarcastic wrote:
I was merely hinting at the fact that there can be no cries of 'foul!' from the right when it was their very own absurd spending that got them kicked to the curb so sneaky liberals could craft budgets like this one.

You might have a point in that the actual elected politicians don't have a legitimate position from which to complain. But the fiscal conservatives who didn't vote for those people and were opposed to previous absurd spending can certainly feel good opposing this as well.


Exactly.

Nick suggests that there may be some potential benefit to the absurd waste of money on HDTV converters being proposed. I'm not so sure of that for the simple reason that there are less and less old TV's as each day passes and fewer and fewer people who don't budget cable or satellite reception into their lives. To me it's like picking a scab. That is pork, period. It has limited and rapidly diminishing benefit and I can see no reason to waste that enormous amount of money on ensuring Americans continue to get the quality programming the major networks offer in their homes.

Matthew suggested the Gitmo thread proved something only he and a few other far left RSP'er believe must be true. I disagree, that thread proves only that there are two very clear stands on the issue and a lot of questionable ground in between.

So what about this? Is it just a chance for you to point fingers? Or is this insane abuse of our wealth okay because some of you guys don't like Bush or his administration?

My view is one of fiscal conservatism, not one of chaining myself to a party-sponsored platform because it has an R or a D printed on it.
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From my POV, increasing the debt by giving money away to some people or by cutting taxes on other people are pretty much the same. Some people end up with more money, your grandchildren end up in debt.

Is the stimulus package a good or a bad idea? Nobody really knows for sure. The extra government expenses will artificially lower unemployment, which tends to be a good thing. Something will be produced, so it should beat paying people to dig holes in the desert and then filling them up. Is it a better plan than cutting spending, which would increase unemployment rather than decrease it? I sure hope so.

Still, the risk that in the end this will not help the economy, and will be just a tremendous waste of money, is something we should all think about. In the end, it's a matter of faith in Keynesian economics. Was Keynes right about the causes for depressions, and how to mitigate them, or was he on crack?

I guess we'll see in a year or two.
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I guess we'll see make excuses and blame the other guy for why it didn't work and then do more of the same in an effort to fix what we ruined in a year or two...
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DWTripp wrote:
Like Chapel, you have no outrage on the flagrant abuse of power and the willingness of our elected officials to suck the life out of the American economy unless it's "them other guys" who you can blame it on.

The RSP liberal mindset is a microscopic look at why America's economy is rough, you guys would rather toe the party line and point fingers at Republicans than stand up and declare that the power-hungry politicians of BOTH parties are thieves, liars and criminals.
Maybe you are living in an alternate reality, but in THIS reality, where America resides, it is the Republican party that has bankrupted America.
THEY were in control of America's spending for the past 8 years - not the Democrats.

For you to already turn around, on January 16, 2009, and start blaming Democrats for the financial hell we're in (and I agree with you - our future and our children's future is at stake here) is borderline clinically insane.
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reapersaurus wrote:
Maybe you are living in an alternate reality, but in THIS reality, where America resides, it is the Republican party that has bankrupted America.
THEY were in control of America's spending for the past 8 years - not the Democrats.

For you to already turn around, on January 16, 2009, and start blaming Democrats for the financial hell we're in (and I agree with you - our future and our children's future is at stake here) is borderline clinically insane.

Thank you, doctor.

P.S. I think you're debating nobody.
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TheLightSarcastic wrote:

I've never met anyone who has ever said "I want higher taxes so the government can have more of our money to spend," yet this attitude is attributed to liberals on a daily basis.

Really? I have met these people quite often, and I do attribute this attitude to liberals sometimes.

TheLightSarcastic wrote:

Many liberals DO sponsor government programs which indeed cost money to run, but the support ends when members of all parties lard up these programs with tack-ons, bureaucracy, corruption, and money that just goes missing.

There you go, now we can agree on something. Where we probably differ is in which programs are worthwhile, but it's a good start.
TheLightSarcastic wrote:

I want clean water, roads that work, well-trained police, a state-of-the-art military, and health care for everybody. I think it is quite possible to have all of these things without miring our country in crippling debt.

Yes, all those things sound great. I think it might be "possible" to have all those things but I might lean towards "improbable". After all, we are still going to have politicians running things.
TheLightSarcastic wrote:

(You can undoubtedly find plenty of money for these things currently blown across the sands of Iraq.)

No comment.
TheLightSarcastic wrote:

I think just about everyone is this country is a fiscal conservative to some degree.

The "to some degree" part is what ruins the concept. If I have a dollar I'm wealthy to some degree.
TheLightSarcastic wrote:

Unfortunately, this trait seems to magically vanish when you go to Washington. We shall see if Barack 'Transparency' Obama puts our money where his mouth is.

I think it disappears in Republicans of late when they get to Washington, not sure whether the Dems ever seriously professed to have it to begin with.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
reapersaurus wrote:
Maybe you are living in an alternate reality, but in THIS reality, where America resides, it is the Republican party that has bankrupted America.
THEY were in control of America's spending for the past 8 years - not the Democrats.

For you to already turn around, on January 16, 2009, and start blaming Democrats for the financial hell we're in (and I agree with you - our future and our children's future is at stake here) is borderline clinically insane.

Thank you, doctor.

P.S. I think you're debating nobody.

Well, if the gist of what Tripp's trying to say is "Democrats have a bill that will continue the Repub's economic slide towards socialism", than I really don't think he's debating anyone, either.
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I think everything on that list is good. Makes me warm and fuzzy on the inside.

Infrastructure is a good thing. I'm sure we'll gain more from these improvement than what they cost us.
 
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As a libertarian, I am perversely interested to see what the results of this massive government intervention will be over the next 5-10 years. The economic theories of Keynesianism, Monetarism, and the Austrian School are on the hot seat with this one. Will there be a long-term sustained recovery & growth? Another boom followed by rampant inflation? Double digit unemployment? Stagflation?

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reapersaurus wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Like Chapel, you have no outrage on the flagrant abuse of power and the willingness of our elected officials to suck the life out of the American economy unless it's "them other guys" who you can blame it on.

The RSP liberal mindset is a microscopic look at why America's economy is rough, you guys would rather toe the party line and point fingers at Republicans than stand up and declare that the power-hungry politicians of BOTH parties are thieves, liars and criminals.
Maybe you are living in an alternate reality, but in THIS reality, where America resides, it is the Republican party that has bankrupted America.
THEY were in control of America's spending for the past 8 years - not the Democrats.

For you to already turn around, on January 16, 2009, and start blaming Democrats for the financial hell we're in (and I agree with you - our future and our children's future is at stake here) is borderline clinically insane.


Oh HOGWASH!! Both parties are responsible for the fiscal mess. Do some reading, watch 60 minutes or Charlie Rose, let some real unbiased data rather than just election spin sound bytes help inform your world view.

I am so tired of either "side" trying to lay this on the other.

The Democratic controlled congress passed and then Clinton signed the 2 or 3 bills into law that removed all the major barriers and safeguard regulation that were in place. Then the Bush administration allowed every loophole to be totally exploited, with virtually no oversight, by the banking industry, big buisness and Wall Street.

It took serious idiocy, greed, cronyism, incompetence and often corruption from a whole host of players, including the majority of federal politicians on both sides of the aisle, to make this giant cluster F*ck disaster possible. No one side however determined could have done it if the other side had not been a willing partner in short sighted stupidity.
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reapersaurus wrote:

Maybe you are living in an alternate reality, but in THIS reality, where America resides, it is the Republican party that has bankrupted America.
THEY were in control of America's spending for the past 8 years - not the Democrats.


Just a question....

Where were the Democrats when they were the MAJORITY in Congress in from 2006-2008?

As I recall...*looking up my constitutional law..* oh, there it is.

Section Eight, Article One.

The powers of Congress...
Quote:
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; ...

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;
To provide and maintain a navy; ...

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;


Hmmmm...Seems to me that, for at least TWO of the eight years you're referring to, it was the Democrats, who in control of Congress, didn't step up the plate and use their vested powers to be a real opposition to Bush's policies.

This means that things like
-The War in Iraq
-Gitmo-
-and the massive expansion of Federal Debt over the past eight years

Is at least partially to blame on the Democrats. If they were truly SERIOUS about thier opposition to Bush's policies, they had the power to force these things to a vote, back in 2006. They didn't. Take from that what you will.
- either they agreed, fundementally with elements of Bush's programs. (Liebermann)
- They were unwilling to speak out against Bush's programs. (Reid, Pelosi)

I'll give Lieberman this- he at least was honest about his support of elements of Bush's policies. Its those who backed Bush, implicitly, by not fighting his programs and who NOW say, "I hated Bush all ALONG!!!"- those are the ones that I feel are no better than political weasels. (Looking at you, Mrs. Speaker of the House.)

Not saying that GOP is any better- heck, they backed Bush because he was the 'HEad of the Party' for SIX years. But they are GETTING their shellacking right now, as they sit in the political wilderness. But the Congressional Democrats? They're getting a pass

And why is that?....

Darilian

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