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Disclaimer: This session report is about the D&D 4th ed RPG, not the BGG entry to which it is attached. In lieu of RPG Geek, and with a desire to get my session to the masses, I figured this was an appropriate venue. My apologies to the admins if it is not.

First, Some Exposition

I am an old-school D&D player. My first purchase was the original 1977 edition blue box that contained the basic rules, the B2: Keep on the Borderlands module, and a cardstock insert of numbered chits that you cut out and used instead of polyhedral dice. I'm not kidding. Perusing Wikipedia, I have discovered that I purchased one of the 6th through 11th printings (probably closer to 6th, based on the year):

Quote:
This box set contained a 48-page rules book (with a light blue cover and artwork by David C. Sutherland III), and 2 sheets of numbered cutout cardstock chits that functioned in lieu of dice. The rulebook also included a brief sample dungeon (complete with a full-page map), although starting with the fourth printing in 1978, the two booklets of maps, encounter tables, and treasure lists were replaced with the module B1: In Search of the Unknown; printings 6-11 (1979-1982) instead featured the module B2: The Keep on the Borderlands.


Needless to say, my young, impressionable mind gobbled it up and sent me on a path that took me into Advanced D&D. Man, it was hard to drink it all in, but we got through it, and the fun times really began. My friend had the original edition of the Deities & Demigods book, which I always coveted. That's also an interesting story for the uninitiated:

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For the first 1980 printing, TSR obtained permission from Michael Moorcock for inclusion of Melnibonean material (from his Elric series of books). The Cthulhu Mythos was believed to be in the public domain, so TSR assumed they could legally use it without any special permission. However, Arkham House, who held the copyright on most Cthulhu books had already licensed the Cthulhu property to the game company Chaosium. Furthermore, Chaosium had also licensed the Melnibonéan copyright from Moorcock. When Chaosium threatened legal action, the first printing was halted and the two companies agreed on a compromise: TSR could continue to use the material but must provide a credit to Chaosium to do so. TSR added the credit for the second printing of the book.

For the third printing, however, TSR felt its material should not contain such an overt reference to one of its competitors and removed the Cthulhu and Melnibonéan pantheons altogether, thus negating the need for the credit. For this reason, the first and second printings have generally been in greater demand by D&D fans and collectors. Ironically, the credit to Chaosium and some references to the deleted pantheons were still included in some of the subsequent printings.


Anyway, I digress. Many years of hacking and slashing and delving and dice rolling passed, and I found myself in college, working at Rider's Hobby Shop in Ann Arbor, Michigan. In the games department. How could life get any better? (It did, but that's another story).

TSR then rocked our collective worlds by announcing a Second Edition of Advanced D&D. But how could that be, the Dragonlance modules were not all released yet! Well, before you could say, "Where'd the half-orc go?" there it was. And what do you know, it was pretty darn good. That Monstrous Compendium 3-ring binder was a good idea. And yeah, it did have that "we yielded to the right-wing squeaky wheels" whitewash to it. But hey, there was a ton of new stuff, and the Forgotten Realms got updated, and it was shiny and new and we ate it up as well.

After a while, though, real life kicked in. My stint in the games industry was ending on a bit of a sour note. I had to get a "real job." But I had a beautiful new wife and a baby on the way and I discovered that there are more important things than staying up all night drinking caffeine and pretending to be an Elf.

Also during this time, bad things started happening to the game industry (IMHO). WotC bought TSR. They moved GenCon out of Milwaukee (an hour drive from my new home of Madison, WI). There was a disturbance in the Force. I became a bit jaded. I started to pass over the D&D aisle at the FLGS. I started boardgaming more. My interests shifted.

Still, you don't just drop it all and burn your bridges. I still kept track of D&D, but only casually. I was pretty-much done with the game.

And then came Third Edition. It was the final nail in the coffin. I couldn't read it. I'm not saying that I couldn't bring myself to read it, I'm saying I could not physically read the words on the pages. It's like WotC told the graphic designers, "You know all that stuff you learned in graphic design school about legibility and font use and white space? Yeah, do the opposite."

And then the open gaming d20 experiment was let loose upon the world. At the time I thought this was a horrible, horrible idea. "Goodbye originality. Homogenization is good."

So, that was it. D&D was dead to me. I stopped roleplaying altogether. Boardgaming was more fun.

Several years passed. I had a son, and then another. They grew into great kids. Smart, literate, friendly, exactly what you hope for in children. (But hey, not perfect, I'm not that presumptuous). We've played many of "Dad's games" and they (like me) have a particular love of the fantasy genre. That took us to the RPG-esque boardgames such as HeroQuest and Warhammer Quest (plus most of the other adventure-type games). We locked into Descent: Journeys in the Dark and we even played a good deal of a Descent: The Road to Legend campaign.

And while that was all happening, WotC started talking about 4th edition. And my friend who was an avid 3rd ed player started talking about it. And I started doing my own research. And I liked what I was hearing. Complaints like, "it's becoming too much like the D&D minis game" sounded like a good thing. So I bit the bullet, and bought the 3-volume set with the slipcase. On release day. It was a sign.

I then poured through the books. Having skipped 3rd ed, I did not expect the extent of the changes. But hey now, this was good. It was boardgamey. Very boardgamey. With RPG elements that were not whacking you on the side of the head. It was Descent, and Warhammer Quest, rolled together and modernized, with that old-school TSR charm. I liked it. I really liked it.

But the proof is in the playing. So, after much humming and hahhing, and after more than a few eye rolls from my wife, I introduced the whole concept of Dungeons and Dragons to my kids. They wanted to try. So we did!

Preparation D (&D)

Now, I knew that the only way this was going to fly was to do it right. The kids love Descent, so I needed to Descent-ize the D&D experience:

I pulled out the old Chessex Megamat.

I downloaded the D&D Character Builder Beta (very highly recommended) and helped the kids roll up characters.

We each picked a figure from our extensive Heroscape collection to represent our characters. The bases are a bit too big, but they'll do just fine.

I downloaded Grandpa's Power Cards (even more highly recommended) but we ended up using the Power Cards generated by the D&D Character Builder.

I also made sure to download some excellent Player Mats (courtesy of BGG'er Jonathan Dietrich) and had them laminated so the kids could draw on them with wet-erase markers and use gaming stones to keep track of hit points, action points and healing surges. The player mats were by far the single element that sold these Descent-loving kids.

I downloaded the FREE counter pack for H1: Keep on the Shadowfell, the module we would be going through. You can get them as well: part one and part two, both PDFs.

I gimped the encounters to reflect a 300xp party rather than the default 500xp party. And wow it was easy. Just remove 200xp(ish) worth of monsters from the encounter, and proceed. Score +1 for the game system, presentation and layout.

We stopped at the FLGS where Dad bought the kids their very own sets of dice. Yeah, I know how to work it.

Not done yet. I still had to cut out all our Power Cards and insert them in CCG card sleeves on top of old CCG cards for stiffeners. What, you don't expect them to just use slips of paper, do you?

OK, after several days of planning and prepping, I was ready! Wait! Popcorn! (pop pop pop) OK, now I was ready! But were the kids? You bet your THAC0 they were.

Finally, the Session Report

The players are:
Casey - age 9 - Dragonborn Paladin
Jack - age 7 - Elf Wizard
Dad - age 42 - Half-Elf Warlord

DM: Dad, pulling double-duty

I had been introducing them to the general rules for a while, so they had the gist. We transferred our major stats and modifiers from our character sheets to our player mats, and I explained what each "thing" was as we did this together. All in all, they grasped the rules extremely easily. Chalk one up for board game experience.

And with that I set up the first encounter and I started playing D&D for the first time in maybe 15 years. For the kids, it was the first time ever.

And we had a blast.

We stumbled through our first battle, everyone figuring our their various powers, and me trying to remember all the nuances of combat (high ACs are good now, no more THAC0, a kobold with 36 hit points?? WTF?).

Everyone managed to take out the Kobold patrol with minor damage, and we headed for Winterhaven (an very appropriately-named town given our last name). Now I shift into DM mode and start easing the kids into actual roleplaying. "So, what brings you around to these parts? ... Anything happen on the road? ... You should talk to the Mayor!" They did a good job, and were soon hired to eliminate the Kobold menace.

We head off to the Kobold lair, and (spoiler alert) are ambushed! The Kobold Skirmisher heads toward the Wizard, but is intercepted by the Paladin. The Warlord marks the Dragonshield to prevent it from also going after the spellslinger, while the Wyrmpriest chucks Orbs of Energy at my head.

Meanwhile, Jack has let loose his Flaming Sphere, which starts rolling around the battlefield whacking the bad guys. The Warlord takes too much damage from the severe ass-kicking he's receiving from two measly kobolds, and is soon unconscious with -3 hit points. The Wizard does what he can to maintain his Sphere and attack the Wrympriest, who is just barely in range (thanks to an advantageous placement by the DM - remember, I want this to be fun for them).

The Paladin takes out the Skirmisher and heads over to the Dragonshield, simultaneously fighting off the attacker while Laying Hands on his dying partner. Slightly healed, I burn my Second Wind and manage stand up, but the Wyrmpriest rolls a critical and I'm back down for the count. The Paladin finally dispatches the Dragonshield and heads for the Wyrmpriest, but not before taking a brutal Energy Orb shot that also sends him into the realm of the dying.

It's down to 2. Jack's wizard has one more shot at the Wyrmpriest before he will be targeted by Energy Orbs. He can take one, maybe two hits before he is also killed. He needs to roll an 11 or higher to hit, and does! All he needs to do is roll a 3 or a 4 on a d4. Another 50-50 chance.

And then came one of those magical D&D moments.

Casey is cheering on his little brother, his fists pumping with excitement, "Come on, Jack!" Jack shakes and releases the die. A 4! Jack shouts for joy - Casey shouts for joy - Dad shouts for joy! Casey hugs his brother and they high-five. Victory is ours!

And with that, we had to take a break. Yes, it was only 2 battles with some roleplaying in the middle, but it was some of the most fun I've ever had playing D&D. Why...?

1) I was playing with my kids. Nothing beats that.

2) I am now thoroughly convinced that 4e is best played as a board game/roleplaying hybrid. To get the most enjoyment from the game, you need to get out the minis and maps (or whatever works for you) and run the combats as tactical exercises. D&D combat is board game combat. No ifs, ands or buts about it. Yes, D&D is a roleplaying game, and roleplaying really needs no rules. But the combat aspect is a board game. And it's a damn good board game. Combat used to be a bit of a chore, now it's a very fun and challenging aspect of the game.

3) All of our 1st level characters were powerful enough to get by, and useful members of the team. Everyone contributed, and contributed equally.

4) We had to think, and strategize, and plan, and measure our resources in order to win the most basic of battles.

The kids had a great time. I had a great time. And I discovered that the elusive "perfect dungeon crawling board game" has arrived. And all the other ones now seem a bit more pale in comparison. No one is more surprised than this jaded old roleplayer.

Dungeons & Dragons is back. And I love it.
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Gregg Lewis
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I was one of those people that were SOOOOOOO ready to hate 4th ed. I have enjoyed the new edition greatly, now that I have given it a chance. It has the feel of the red box days to me. The power cards is a great idea, I have wanted to create something similar.
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Eric Jome
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bryanwinter wrote:
I discovered that there are more important things than staying up all night drinking caffeine and pretending to be an Elf.


To paraphrase Zaphod Beeblebrox, if there is anything more important than this around, I want it caught and dealt with right now.
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Donald Cleary
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If that experience doesn't keep your kids in gaming until they're your age, I don't know what will. I honestly think old school RPGers make some of the best board game partners. They sink into a role and make things fun.
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Eric Jome
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I am very deeply jealous.
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Graham Smallwood
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cosine wrote:
I am very deeply jealous.


Just wait until he tells us about overhearing his kid talking about his character to a friend.

Which reminds me, just last week my dwarf followed a blue dragon in to its lair...
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Rob "Bodhi" Wolff
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This pretty much mirrors my own 4E experiences. In fact, I think that the thread in which I was relaying my group's experiences is where your version of the player mat was developed. (my initial design was a little sparse ... hey, I never claimed to be a graphics guy!)

I am a firm believer in making boardgame-style implements for the combat aspect of the RPG. Our group keeps adding small refinements to our system, and it always surprises me whenever we find yet another thing to help along with some handy craftwork. Just this past Sunday one of our players showed up with table placards denoting the various effects of conditions.

So you'd be knocked prone, and we'd place a placard in front of the player that said "I am Prone" (on one side) and "You are prone" (on the player's side). Each side of the placard then listed the effect of being prone, and that way everybody could be reminded at a glance what modifications to use. It was yet another one of those moments when we all looked at each other and marvelled why we hadn't been doing this all along!

Bless those boardgame designers and their wonderful components for giving us all of these great ideas to steal!

Here's hoping that you keep finding fun and exciting ways to spice up your 4E game, and that you keep having as much fun with it as you seem to have had with your initial foray!

Happy Gaming!
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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BodhiWolff wrote:
This pretty much mirrors my own 4E experiences. In fact, I think that the thread in which I was relaying my group's experiences is where your version of the player mat was developed. (my initial design was a little sparse ... hey, I never claimed to be a graphics guy!)


Yes indeed! In fact, I had downloaded the player mat on your thread when it was active. then when I put this session together I had to dig deep to find the thread and the mats on it. I'm glad you started that thread - it inspired me to do as much as I did to create bits.
 
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A. B. West
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Gads, I love this kind of stuff. I just dug out my old Red Book edition of D&D and it still makes me grin from ear to ear.

Thanks for bringing back the memories (again)!
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tim Tim TIm TIM TIMMY!!
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Great story, thanks for sharing, sure sounds like fun.


I gave up AD&D when I found Heroscape, no need for a DM anymore - whihc was always me. My friend even bought the 4ed. so I could read them in case I wanted to start up another campaign with them and I just laughed - why on earth would I want to do all that homework for others to play a game , no sir re Bob - I want to be in it and I want to win it.

But after your report I would at least try it, so you did very good, thanks so much

ANd

Game On'

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Lance
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Quote:
It was Descent, and Warhammer Quest, rolled together and modernized, with that old-school TSR charm.


I agreed with everything but the last comment. There is no old school charm in 4th edition.

Great session report though - I am currently DM-ing a 4e campaign, and we are having a good time as well.
 
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Sifu
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I'm mainly commenting so that I can find your report easily later on. laugh

Thanks for providing all the details! After a very long hiatus from RPGs, I bought up some Call of Cthulhu and a few others games and got some playing in, but found it a LOT of work for the reward. But 4th Ed. sounds like some great board game ideas are incorporated to shrink the labor a bit.
 
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Mike Crotch - Harvey
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I'm a fan of 4th Ed compared to earlier ones, as it doesn't rewards ridiculous powergaming less and there are many more options to make characters compared to the linear routes you had to take to make a decent character earlier. Plus, the classes are more balanced; I once played a level 20 3.5D&D game where the party consisted of 6 Wizards!

But...While D&D (any version) works as a boardgame, there is simply too much combat and rules to leave room for roleplaying. When 3/4 of your session at least is made up of combat. that doesn't leave much room for character development. I much prefer Call of Cthulhu or especially Wraith: The Oblivion as actual role playing games.

I definitely think there is an awesome boardgame in D&D 4ed though. Package it with good method of randomly generating encounters and you've got a Descent beater!
 
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Peter Marchlewitz
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Awesome read. You know, I still have many of my old modules from that same era. One of my favourites was S1 Tomb of Horrors.

 
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Nathan Baumbach
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I've always had the opinion that 4e is a good boardgame, with hints of role-playing.

Since my group is more about politics, puzzles and not so much combat, we realized that 4e is not the version for us.

It's also very fun for the MMO crowd because it's so much more instant gratifcation than previous editions. My friend Ray left our group to play 4e because he can't stand to die so often, and with a paladin pushing 8 heals in an encounter, he hasn't yet.

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Robert Wilson
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Excellent job!

I liked the part about buying the kids their own dice

have a GG.....
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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Thanks everyone for your comments and your GG - much appreciated. I have a few responses:

BodhiWolff wrote:
So you'd be knocked prone, and we'd place a placard in front of the player that said "I am Prone" (on one side) and "You are prone" (on the player's side). Each side of the placard then listed the effect of being prone, and that way everybody could be reminded at a glance what modifications to use. It was yet another one of those moments when we all looked at each other and marvelled why we hadn't been doing this all along!


Not sure if you've seen, but the Enworld community has turned Grandpa's Power Cards up to 11. There are now condition cards and battle action cards and regeneration cards and treasure cards and all kinds of things. Perfect for your placard idea!

UndeadViking wrote:
Quote:
It was Descent, and Warhammer Quest, rolled together and modernized, with that old-school TSR charm.


I agreed with everything but the last comment. There is no old school charm in 4th edition.


I think "charm" may have been the wrong word. "Approach" may have been better. The early D&D stuff (especially the stuff written by Gygax) tended to be of the "here are the basic ingredients, you figure out how to make them fun" variety. And the game grew and expanded, the authors started telling you more and more "how" to play. In my opinion, the 4e books are a return to the old method. Of course, they may just not have had enough space for all that. I like the fact that the Players Handbook is really just the rules, with very little toward "how to roleplay." The DMG, on the other hand is very light on rules, and heavy on creating an experience where the players figure out how to roleplay all on their own. I would even say that this is an improvement on the 1st edition AD&D books, where the bulk of the combat rules were in the DMG.

Sifu wrote:
But 4th Ed. sounds like some great board game ideas are incorporated to shrink the labor a bit.


Absolutely so. As soon as I added all the bits mentioned above, the game became much easier - and frankly much more fun. The fact that the rules push the minis aspect so heavily, and the fact the (horrible) Character Record Sheets product includes blank power cards, and that WotC's Character Builder software spits out custom Power Cards with your ability and equipment modifiers already incorporated into your powers, tells me that these are not just "cool ideas" - they are the complete intent of the designers on how the game (at least the combat aspect of the game) is to be played.

Running a 4e combat "in your head" is still absolutely possible, but I would say that you lose the huge benefit of running combat as a tactical boardgame. "Purist" roleplayers may disagree, and are certainly int he right to do so, but to me the game is more fun as an RPG/board game hybrid. All those bits make more sense and your character's abilities and powers really come alive during combat.

And their personalities come alive during roleplaying. There are long stretches of play where the minis are not used - our entire time in the town of Winterhaven is a perfect example. And you can see the genius of the H1 module in that it is set up to balance the board game and RPG elements. Your first activity is combat, then you roleplay, then another combat, then (if you head to the dragon burial site) you get a combat that ends in roleplaying. Nice stuff.

elcrotchhio wrote:
But...While D&D (any version) works as a boardgame, there is simply too much combat and rules to leave room for roleplaying. When 3/4 of your session at least is made up of combat. that doesn't leave much room for character development. I much prefer Call of Cthulhu or especially Wraith: The Oblivion as actual role playing games.


After we fumbled our way through the first combat, we found the second one went a LOT faster. I've also heard from friends that combat takes way less time in 4e since it is so literal. This opened up more time for the roleplaying. I have yet to discover which is true for myself though.

elcrotchhio wrote:
I definitely think there is an awesome boardgame in D&D 4ed though. Package it with good method of randomly generating encounters and you've got a Descent beater!


My thought exactly. When I asked my boys if they wanted to play Descent or D&D next, they jumped at D&D. With the minis and the boards and the cards and the player mats, D&D is not just a descent beater, it IS essentially Descent. Likely the only reason for us to play Descent now is to have fun with the "players vs the Overloard" tactical game (which is all Descent ever really was) and not as a RPG-lite board game. D&D is now the best of both worlds (to me anyway).

Palpatine wrote:
Awesome read. You know, I still have many of my old modules from that same era. One of my favourites was S1 Tomb of Horrors.


Thanks! About a year or two ago I sold off a ton of my old D&D collection on eBay to subsidize an HDTV purchase. But I kept the gems, including the original rulebooks, the S series, I6 (Ravenloft), and a few others. I was jaded, but not THAT jaded!

emceekhan wrote:
I've always had the opinion that 4e is a good boardgame, with hints of role-playing.

Since my group is more about politics, puzzles and not so much combat, we realized that 4e is not the version for us.

It's also very fun for the MMO crowd because it's so much more instant gratifcation than previous editions. My friend Ray left our group to play 4e because he can't stand to die so often, and with a paladin pushing 8 heals in an encounter, he hasn't yet.


I'd say this is all very accurate. However, one of the trickiest (and best) aspects is figuring out HOW to get your healing. You may have 8-10 healing surges per day (not encounter), but being able to use them is another story. Great fun.

dude163 wrote:
Excellent job!

I liked the part about buying the kids their own dice

have a GG.....


Many thanks!
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A great post! Brought back some good memories. I think 4e is great for new players and especially kids, since it reduces the thought process for combat and character design significantly. My experience with 4e wasn't quite as fun unfortunately. My group switched to it and gave it a try, but it didn't maintain our interest. After a few adventures we just stopped playing. It's kind of sad, because I think if we had stuck with 3.5 (or even 3.75 maybe) we'd probably still be playing. For us, 4e killed D&D. For me personally, trying to mash an RPG experience with a board game style tactical combat system just didn't go together. If I want that kind of combat, I'll stick to board games (like Descent) or strategy computer games. Part of what made D&D great to me was that the way the rules and abilities were set up, you felt like you could accomplish anything! Now, in 4e, I feel like I'll progress from a peasant to a peasant with a nicer axe and I can walk like a knight in a game of chess and push someone one square away before I get eaten by that dragon over there. No special abilities, nothing to make my distinct. Not even a stat boost to be found.
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Nick Avtges
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Thanks for the great report. I've been having a great time with Heroquest with my boys and was wondering what next step to take. Descent and D&D 4ed were on the short list. You've tipped me in the direction of D&D.
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The reaction to 4E has been interesting to say the least.

I had the opposite reaction to 4E, in that I thought any improvements it made over 3.5 were things that Descent already does better than D&D.

For new players or players looking to return from a long absence I would recommend looking at current editions of Castles and Crusades (Troll Lord Games), Labyrinth Lord (Goblinoid Games), Runequest (Mongoose Publishing), or the Warhammer RPG (Fantasy Flight Games) before necessarily jumping into 4E. If you haven't already invested in an RPG, don't feel obligated to purchase the Microsoft Vista of RPGs.

If you do decide to go with 4E, by all means jump in with both feet. Tabletop RPGs are great fun and I've been happy to rediscover them and introduce my kids to them.

If you've got a lot invested in 3.5, there aren't any urgent reasons to change. New players who join your group don't necessarily need to invest in books right away and they'll be available on ebay for a long time anyway. I'm actually looking forward to getting a lot out of my 3.5 books for years.

I'm also looking forward to 5th edition in 2014 or so. They can then incorporate the best of the massive 4th edition changes with a smattering of nostalgic material from earlier editions. Maybe by then I'll have gotten through my 3.5 books.
 
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Nathan Baumbach
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If they ever fix the GSL to allow the simultaneous production of 3.5 stuff and 4e stuff, they'd win.

Pathfinder translated directly to 4e without the GSL hurdle would definitely suck in both crowds and make everyone happy (and both companies more money).

 
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Jack Smith
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Well I play both Decent and 4th Edition and there are a few similarities but otherwise they are like chalk and cheese.

I loved 1st Edition, 2nd Edition was ok but for me I found 3rd far too fiddly and unbalanced so I stopped for several years. The details and inconcistencies in the rules and class balances seemed to eat into any reality or innovative play it purported to model. And combat was very simplistic for some classes yet over detailed for others, with no real way to visualise it easily or consistently. Of course many will disagree with that:)

4th brought it back to the type of game I really like, well structured with all players having equal status, well balanced and very open to diversity of play. As I like board and war games its no suprise I would prefer it that way.

Some people want rules about how to be a Baker or Farmer(3rd Edition), others can easily make those rules if required from the exisiting rules (4th Edition's versatile skill system). But if they dont care about Baking or Farming they dont have to wade through rules about it.

But its not for everyone as no game is.

All I know is my family are having a blast with 4e as it operates at many levels which is what makes it so clever I think. I would not have dared try them on 3ed without cheating heavily on the rules.
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Toy The Hutt
Italy
Ferrara
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bryanwinter wrote:

We stopped at the FLGS where Dad bought the kids their very own sets of dice. Yeah, I know how to work it.
...
The players are:
Casey - age 9 - Dragonborn Paladin
Jack - age 7 - Elf Wizard
Dad - age 42 - Half-Elf Warlord


Awww.... kawai!!!
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Skip Olivares
United States
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aquilaprime wrote:
I was one of those people that were SOOOOOOO ready to hate 4th ed. I have enjoyed the new edition greatly, now that I have given it a chance.


I'm the exact opposite. I was cautiously optimistic about 4th edition, and was getting pretty excited about its release. I ran it for my gaming group, and we all came to the same unfortunate conclusion: it's trash. It's basically World of Warcraft in pen and paper form, and has completely ended D&D for me and my gaming group. I really did want to like it. It's ironic given what bryanwinter said about 3rd edition. It turned him off, yet 3rd edition is what made D&D playable for me. 4th edition is like the Candyland version, however.

Oh well. There's still Shadowrun/World of Darkness/Savage Worlds/etc.
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Jack Smith
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Yes 4E has upset many and thats understandable. The reasons I disliked 3.5 were the very same reasons some loved it.I prefer structure and balance in rules that I can then expand from,others prefer to be able to min/max or whatever. Having Wizards so overpowered and Clerics as heal bots didn't realy excite me either, I wanted all players to have equal status,which again wont suit some players at all.

In fact the list of things I disliked were the same as the changes they made so I was lucky. I actually find role playing and creating encounters a lot easier as the rules are simple enough to not get in the way. Others prefer to check some skill score to see if a player can stand on his head or not:)

Many still play 3.5 anyway,theres still a lot of that material around and readily available.

Anyway its important to have fun and if your not in D and D thats a shame as Im sure you spent a lot of time with it and that would seem to be thrown away.



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