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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42» Forums » General

Subject: 88 can move? rss

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Ethan Strauss
United States
Wisconsin
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Hi,
More on the stats for the German 88mm Flak gun.
The 88 FLAK gun can move with 7AP? These things were huge (I have found a couple of different weights on the web, but the lowest I have seen is ~ 5 tons. See some cool pictures of this and related guns at http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=5544) and were not meant to be pulled around by a bunch of grunting sweating guys. I am not sure how hard they really were to move in reality. I would guess that a bunch of grunting sweating guys could do it, but not as a standard thing. I would think that it should need at least 8 AP to move so that a CAP would need to be spent.I am not sure what this does to the transport rules (I have not played with them yet), but I suspect that it is appropriate for it to take special effort to even hook it up to a truck.

Ethan
 
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Rasmus Høygaard Jensen
Denmark
Copenhagen
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i also thought it to be a little odd...:what:
 
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Joel Schuster
Germany
Bretten
Baden-Württemberg
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I think there should be no action at all which a unit cannot do on its own without spending CAPs. Look at the build hasty defense revision on the designers page. By the initial rules you'd needed 8 APs to carry out this action and now it has been reduced to 7 APs. Hidden movement costs all your APs as well. So why not move a huge PaK like this for 7 as well ? I think its still quite costly and cannot see a big difference to increasing costs to 8. It screws you over when your CAPs are gone when your pool is greatly reduced. Why should a team operating it not decide to move that gun on their own.

Historically I am not the expert to say it could be moved by a few guys or not. I just know it was usually mounted on a pod (lafette) so it could be moved by horse power and be attached to trucks more easily.
 
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Wulf Corbett
Scotland
Shotts
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The 88 Flak is an unusual beast, in that it's mounted on a cruciform trail with removeable front & rear wheels. When emplaced with the wheels removed, it would take a few dozen men huge effort to pick it up and carry it.

But it was unusual in being able to fire while the wheels were still attached, although the trail was dropped to the ground. It would be possible although difficult, to drag it along smooth even ground. Remember the crew for one of these monsters was possibly 9 men!
 
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Jon Creek
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Even if you did decide to increase the AP cost to move to 8 this would not prevent a player taking an opportunity action to move it anyway (unless you had a house rule for that too).

Using the transport rules this means it takes an extra turn to re-deploy having been moved unless you use CAPs anyway.

If you really don't like the 88 being able to move I suppose you could just have a house rule that it can't move except when being transported.
 
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Greg Moore
United States
KC area
Missouri
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Maybe the transport that would be with the unit is abstract and that the 7 points is for a transport moving it.
 
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Lutz Pietschker
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Berlin
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The 88 usually had its own transport (often a SdKfz halftrack) and a crew that was larger than the men actually needed to load, aim and and fire. And it was, for a gun of that calibre, very fast to unlimber/limber. I always thought the movement rules incorporated these facts, but of course I am only guessing on that behalf.
Actually it takes you a complete activation to just get it hooked up- so to move it from one place to the other would take three activations at least (load, move, onload). This is certainly near to immobility in terms of the average scenario length.
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uwe eickert
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Fremont
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I had to decide on a unified movement system. It took quite a bit to load the big guns, that is why we went with 7APs cost. Again, how often will a long range firing weapon waste an entire turn to move 1 hex? Not too often, so we had to make designer choices. Either add tons of rules or go with what the unit's usage was 95% of the time.

Again, I am getting a lot of critique for seemingly obvious incongruities. But in actual game play, many of the examples given really never happen. To keep a playable system, common usage of units were used as the basis for the stats. I hope this makes sense. Uwe
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Nigel Heather
United Kingdom
Horsham
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Not just any Sd.Kfz. The 88 was pulled by the big 8-ton Sd.Kfz7.

I really doubt that the crew could have moved under their own steam. It's possible that a smaller Sd.Kfz could have been used for small distances in an emergency.

In reality, I doubt these were ever moved unless there was no sign off fighting. To get them back up onto their wheels would have taken the full crew a long time and then movement would be slow. Add to this that a lot of time would have been spent builing up cover and camoflage and that these valuable assets were extremely vulnerable whilst being moved I would be surprised if it ever happen when battle was anywhere near.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
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