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Subject: Strategies for Italy rss

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wodan wodan
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Overall, I think that Italy, for its small size, has a fairly wide variety of options. Here are 4 different options to consider.

France: Italy can mass Infantry and move them to France and Northwestern Europe. This frees up Germany to attack Russia without having to worry about getting D-Day-ed by British/American forces.

Caucasus: This gambit involves moving the 2 Infantry in Libya to Ukraine(captured by Germany), then building 2 Transports. The following turn, Italy attacks Caucasus with every single one of their starting units, consisting of 5 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 2 Tanks, 1 Fighter, and Bombardment from 2 Cruisers and a Battleship. The best part is that Germany can then immediately reinforce the territory afterwords, or even use it as stepping stone to hit Moscow with their allotment of Tanks and Aircraft, even if they fail to capture the other territories.

Africa: Assuming that Germany weakens or destroys units in Egypt or Trans-Jordan(it can do 1 or the other), Italy can easily finish off what's left, and rush into Africa, draining IPCs from Britain. This probably would go in tandem with the France or Atlantic Strategy

Atlantic: Italy has a pretty big fleet already. If it builds a Carrier on the first turn, and Germany uses its air force to rapidly wipe out most of the British Fleet, Italy can easily dominate the seas, sinking enemy ships with ease, and perhaps even threatening Great Britain if they aren't careful.

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Wendell Martin, Jr.
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wodan46 wrote:
Overall, I think that Italy, for its small size, has a fairly wide variety of options.
Good post, thanks. Maybe it's because my first real wargame experience was as Italy in a multi-player session of AH's Third Reich, but I have a soft spot in my heart for this underdog. Just because you start weak with little territory doesn't mean that you're helpless (though if that impression is held by your opponents, it can be helpful. ninja ).

wodan46 wrote:
Caucasus: This gambit involves moving the 2 Infantry in Libya to Ukraine(captured by Germany), then building 2 Transports. The following turn, Italy attacks Caucasus with every single one of their starting units
Because it's realistic/historical, I prefer to play with the recent FAQ's optional rule that the Black Sea (SZ 16) is closed, but otherwise that could be successful. Italy can always more slowly send troops overland to the Caucasus (as they did in the fight for Stalingrad).

wodan46 wrote:
Atlantic: Italy has a pretty big fleet already. If it builds a Carrier on the first turn, and Germany uses its air force to rapidly wipe out most of the British Fleet, Italy can easily dominate the seas, sinking enemy ships with ease, and perhaps even threatening Great Britain if they aren't careful.
This I like the sound of... Regia Marina in the North Sea in full effect, taking care of business! Nice if it works out.
 
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Seth Owen
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Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?
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wodan wodan
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wargamer55 wrote:
Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?

They start with 15 IPCs. Carriers cost 14 IPCs. We are assuming as a given that you are playing with National Objectives, I can't really conceive of the game being played without them.
 
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Seth Owen
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wodan46 wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?

They start with 15 IPCs. Carriers cost 14 IPCs. We are assuming as a given that you are playing with National Objectives, I can't really conceive of the game being played without them.


They'll need to wait for planes, then.
 
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wodan wodan
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wargamer55 wrote:
wodan46 wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?

They start with 15 IPCs. Carriers cost 14 IPCs. We are assuming as a given that you are playing with National Objectives, I can't really conceive of the game being played without them.


They'll need to wait for planes, then.

They have 1 Plane. They can land it on the Carrier if they wish, though doing so isn't really needed.
 
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Don Moody
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wodan46 wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?

They start with 15 IPCs. Carriers cost 14 IPCs. We are assuming as a given that you are playing with National Objectives, I can't really conceive of the game being played without them.


That's funny, I can't conceive of anyone using any of the optional rules (like Research & Development or National Objectives & Bonus Income).

Also, whether or not you are using the National Objectives & Bonus Income rule, I thought Italy only starts with 10 IPCs (in either scenario).

DonMoody
 
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Jan Ozimek
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DonMoody wrote:
wodan46 wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Where does Italy get the money for a carrier?

They start with 15 IPCs. Carriers cost 14 IPCs. We are assuming as a given that you are playing with National Objectives, I can't really conceive of the game being played without them.


That's funny, I can't conceive of anyone using any of the optional rules (like Research & Development or National Objectives & Bonus Income).

Also, whether or not you are using the National Objectives & Bonus Income rule, I thought Italy only starts with 10 IPCs (in either scenario).

DonMoody


We are using NOs (and tech) but we thought that no one got any bonus income initially. Can someone please clarify, whether that is the case.

Edit: I don't mean to derail the thread, but this matter has a HUGE impact on Italys starting options.
 
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Lawrence Davis
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But Don, by the end of their first turn, they should receive the extra 5 ipcs for Nat Obj #1. ....wait, did he say buy a aircraft carrier first turn?

Good options Wodan. Anyway, I like all of them. However I would imagine most players would shy away from The 'reinforce France' option though. What Italian player worth his salt would want to see his armies soaking up the sun on the French northen beaches? Better to have them off in Africa or Russia chasing those Allied ragomuffs!

And I certainly would not want to play a lackey Yes-Man to Heir Furher, LOL
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Don Moody
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ozimek wrote:

We are using NOs (and tech) but we thought that no one got any bonus income initially.


You only get Bonus Income when you collect income.
No nation starts with any bonus income, only with the amount printed on the set-up cards.

DonMoody
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Don Moody
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DocD wrote:
But Don, by the end of their first turn, they should receive the extra 5 ipcs for Nat Obj #1. ....wait, did he say buy a aircraft carrier first turn?


Yes - he said "If it [i.e. Italy] builds a Carrier on the first turn ..."

But it is tough to buy a 14 IPC unit when you only start with 10 IPCs.

DonMoody
 
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Neil Parker
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Quote:
Because it's realistic/historical, I prefer to play with the recent FAQ's optional rule that the Black Sea (SZ 16) is closed, but otherwise that could be successful. Italy can always more slowly send troops overland to the Caucasus (as they did in the fight for Stalingrad).


Nice optional rule. Link added to FAQ.
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Jan Ozimek
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DonMoody wrote:
ozimek wrote:

We are using NOs (and tech) but we thought that no one got any bonus income initially.


You only get Bonus Income when you collect income.
No nation starts with any bonus income, only with the amount printed on the set-up cards.

DonMoody


Thanks.

Now that makes the Atlantic and the all out Ukraine/Caucasus opening a lot less potent. I.e. no round 1 Carrier or two Transports.

Atlantic adventures

How realistic is the Atlantic option anyway? I mean the UK can put some 43 IPCs worth of ships in the water on their first turn. (Assuming no IC is built)

1 BB
1 Carrier (+2 starting Fighters)
1 DD
=42 IPC
Plus whatever survived the first turn. At least one DD and most likely the Gibraltar fleet as well (1 Cruiser + 1 DD). This actually makes it unnecessary to buy another DD.

Good luck dominating that fleet with the Italian:
2 Cruisers
1 BB
plus possibly 1 Fighter from France and one DD bought one the first turn.

Add to that, that an Atlantic expedition is not likely to add to Italys low income. I don't think its an option.

Caucasus

I think the Caucasus is still interesting, but its a lot less explosive with only two Transports on Italys turn 2. Actually, even if it can be taken, I don't think its realistic hold Caucasus from the coming Russian counter attack on RU3.
Perhaps continiuos discount amphibious invasion forces of Inf and possibly Art would be smart to get maximum usage of the Coastal Bombardment potential. It is more realistic to aim at wearing down the Russians than actually holding Caucasus from round 2. Also this would be a great use of the Italian Fighter, which can sometimes be hard to utilize.

The biggest problem of the Caucasus strategy is that it opens up Africa to American invasion because the Italian fleet is to far east to threaten any (typically lightly defended) American transports in SZ 12. Also it takes focus from Trans-Jordan which is a NO for Italy.


So far I have preferred to focus on the Mediterranian but in my latest game I actually started garrisoning France with Italian Inf (and the fighter) and it seemed to work pretty nicely to free up some Germans.
 
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kent brockman
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ozimek wrote:

Actually, even if it can be taken, I don't think its realistic hold Caucasus from the coming Russian counter attack on RU3.


in the 1942 scenario, JAP plays before RUS, which means a LOT of defending japanese fighters in stalingrad in RU3 =)

I still think that the best axis strategy is to attack stalingrad with everything available, defend it with everything available, and then go for moscow with everything available =)

 
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wodan wodan
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DonMoody wrote:
ozimek wrote:

We are using NOs (and tech) but we thought that no one got any bonus income initially.


You only get Bonus Income when you collect income.
No nation starts with any bonus income, only with the amount printed on the set-up cards.

DonMoody

Damn you tripleA, for having inaccurate data. It indicates that Germany DOES start with a Battleship in the Baltic, and that NO bonuses are given at the start of the game.
 
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wodan wodan
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ozimek wrote:

Atlantic adventures

How realistic is the Atlantic option anyway? I mean the UK can put some 43 IPCs worth of ships in the water on their first turn. (Assuming no IC is built)

1 BB
1 Carrier (+2 starting Fighters)
1 DD
=42 IPC
Plus whatever survived the first turn. At least one DD and most likely the Gibraltar fleet as well (1 Cruiser + 1 DD). This actually makes it unnecessary to buy another DD.

Good luck dominating that fleet with the Italian:
2 Cruisers
1 BB
plus possibly 1 Fighter from France and one DD bought one the first turn.

Add to that, that an Atlantic expedition is not likely to add to Italys low income. I don't think its an option.

Well it isn't when you can't build a Carrier. If you can, this would be the loadout:
Italian Fleet: 1 BB, 2 Cruiser, 1 Carrier(with 1 Fighter)
British Fleet: 1 BB, 1 Carrier(with 2 Fighters) 1 DD, 1 Sub
Also, if Britain builds that, they aren't building Bombers to hit Germany or an IC to hit Japan.


ozimek wrote:

Caucasus

I think the Caucasus is still interesting, but its a lot less explosive with only two Transports on Italys turn 2. Actually, even if it can be taken, I don't think its realistic hold Caucasus from the coming Russian counter attack on RU3.

Given that Germans go before Russia in the 1941 setup, not an issue. That is, assuming that Germany doesn't simply attack Moscow. Russia will have difficulty reinforcing both of them.
 
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Mauro Fiorelli
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WendellM wrote:
wodan46 wrote:
Overall, I think that Italy, for its small size, has a fairly wide variety of options.
Good post, thanks. Maybe it's because my first real wargame experience was as Italy in a multi-player session of AH's Third Reich, but I have a soft spot in my heart for this underdog. Just because you start weak with little territory doesn't mean that you're helpless (though if that impression is held by your opponents, it can be helpful. ninja ).

wodan46 wrote:
Caucasus: This gambit involves moving the 2 Infantry in Libya to Ukraine(captured by Germany), then building 2 Transports. The following turn, Italy attacks Caucasus with every single one of their starting units
Because it's realistic/historical, I prefer to play with the recent FAQ's optional rule that the Black Sea (SZ 16) is closed, but otherwise that could be successful. Italy can always more slowly send troops overland to the Caucasus (as they did in the fight for Stalingrad).

wodan46 wrote:
Atlantic: Italy has a pretty big fleet already. If it builds a Carrier on the first turn, and Germany uses its air force to rapidly wipe out most of the British Fleet, Italy can easily dominate the seas, sinking enemy ships with ease, and perhaps even threatening Great Britain if they aren't careful.
This I like the sound of... Regia Marina in the North Sea in full effect, taking care of business! Nice if it works out.


Where do I find official FAQ?
tks
 
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Jan Ozimek
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Gedeone wrote:


Where do I find official FAQ?
tks


At Wizards of the Coast / Avalon Hill:
http://wizards.com/AvalonHill/rules/AxAl-AnEd_Errata.pdf

(Or by reading posts by Krieghund )
 
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Rich Callahan
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if italy buys a destroyer (8) round one and gains its 2 NO's and takes egypt it will end up with 24 IPC's. Next round it can buy a carrier (14) and a fighter (10). After 2 turns Italy will have 1 BB, 2 CA, 1 CV, 1 DD, and 2 FTRs on that carrier to dominate the mediterranean/atlantic.
 
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Jan Ozimek
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shamus578 wrote:
if italy buys a destroyer (8) round one and gains its 2 NO's and takes egypt it will end up with 24 IPC's. Next round it can buy a carrier (14) and a fighter (10). After 2 turns Italy will have 1 BB, 2 CA, 1 CV, 1 DD, and 2 FTRs on that carrier to dominate the mediterranean/atlantic.


Compare that to the potential size allied fleets in the Atlantic in round 3, and you will be dissapointed.

Of course this would require the Allies (or the UK at least) to also spend a significant portion of their income on navy. Problem is, the UK has to build a navy to protect their transports from Luftwaffe anyway, so it's not really forcing them to "waste" IPC on anything they aren't producing anyways.

Perhaps in a KJF game, it might be an interesting option for Italy to mass navy, but if the allies are focusing on Europe, I don't think it's worth it.
 
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Marc M

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I prefer playing Italy in the 41 game. Turn order makes all the difference.

In 42 if Italy takes a square Germany gets to jump in and defend it. Kinda a passive aggressive way of leaping forward.

BUT in 41 Italy can take a lightly held no man's land type square like Belorussa or the Eastern Ukraine and then Germany blitzes into Russia with its half dozen tanks and whatever air force.

Usually Russia doesn't let this happen but it distracts them and makes em play different.

Just curious, how much trouble do you all go through to try defending that Italian navy? Life's rough once it gets sunk.
 
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Andrew Wallick
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Quote:
Caucasus

I think the Caucasus is still interesting, but its a lot less explosive with only two Transports on Italys turn 2. Actually, even if it can be taken, I don't think its realistic hold Caucasus from the coming Russian counter attack on RU3.


On the 41 setup, If Germany doesn't go for Leningrad, and in G1 takes Baltic States, East Poland, and Ukraine, then Italy can really help with the Stalingrad invasion. Assuming Russia doesn't put more than 6 or 7 infantry or worse in Caucasus, then Italy can send in an infantry and artillery, plus get the lovely 3 bombardments. That would kill plenty of infantry so that Germany would be poised to easily take Caucasus on G2 with 4 tanks, and a good amount of infantry/artillery. If the russian player defended Leningrad with much, then he won't be able to take caucasus back, at least not very easily.

Also, if this tactic is used, Italy should send its ground troops toward Ukraine to defend it as best as possible. Also, German planes could be sent to Ukraine, and any extra tanks Germany has.

 
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