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Subject: Hey look a thread about SEX but not likely to be a fun one. rss

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Lynette
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Ok the "abortion" thread derailed into contraception which then went to gender and sex expections. So I am staring a new thread.



MusedFable wrote:
Meerkat wrote:
MusedFable wrote:
Meerkat wrote:

Minor rant - If I have one serious bitch about the unintended results of "feminism" and “female sexual liberation” it is that now not only are women expected by a growing segment of the male population to be both cheap and easy, they also still want them to be both gullible and grateful for the “privilege” of being used.


Who is this "they"?


They = A growing segment of the male population

I'm 24. The feel I get from my generation is that sex is more open than our parents generation. I'm not getting a "used" vibe. Men want sex. Woman want sex. They have sex. I'm not seeing gullibility? Sex is cheap. Men are already "easy", and more women are too. Unless the person has a giant ego I don't think much gratitude is expected.




1) Sex is not “cheap” for women. Even assuming she is completely successful at not getting pregnant as Dar pointed out in the previous thread all the “costs” of birth control usually fall to her. The pill averages between $20-50 a month and that is with subsidies and/or insurance. The mandatory yearly exam $50-200 depending again on coverage. So she pays $35-50 a month, plus all the aggravation and potential hormonal affects just to maintain the capacity of having sex without stressing out any month she is 30 minutes late starting her flow.

Throw in the occasional Dr bill to deal with bladder and/or yeast infections and then the possible financial costs of dealing with a pregnancy alone if the birth control fails.

This is just medical costs.

Now let us talk about opportunity costs.

Average Man getting ready for a date usually put on some medium quality clothing and goes. Probably whitey tighties for underwear, probably wears tennis shoes, might wear loafers like at work. Might use some $15/bottle cologne might not. Might be smart and actually have $2 worth of condoms on him.

Average Woman getting ready for a date, some of her best (more expensive) clothing, make-up, nails done (often $15-40), perfume almost always (often $60/bottle), special pricy shoes, special pricy underwear, possibly even a trip to get everything all trimmed and waxed.

Lets face it guys you like this crap. It isn’t just women doing it to them selves. You might bang somebody in sweats, but your head turns and you drool when you see the hotsy fashion plate walk by.

So again women have already laid out some serious money on average when they “go out”

So how come it is that a growing segment of the male population think they are being taken advantage of unfairly if they buy some drinks and/or dinner and don’t get laid.

Hell I have more arguments every year with guys who are getting laid and think that after the 3rd date (you know the magic one where you are supposed to get laid these days) it should be understood that the check alternates. Cause gee they are both getting the enjoyment of the dating and the sex right?

2) Easiness - reasons for having sex – While there are exceptions to every rule, the old adage comes to mind, women trade sex for love, men trade love for sex comes to mind.

I would replace love with relationship and quality time for much of today’s younger culture, but the core of the adage is still true. Women want/need quality time, preferably with somebody they feel connected too. That is why they spend so much time talking with girl friends. They don’t/can’t disassociate this need just because you add the possibility of sex. If anything it becomes greater. You can have a dozen friends simultaneously and nobody thinks anything of it. You cannot be sleeping with a dozen different guys and not feel stretched and trashy.

So who she is going to be sleeping with is important because it is a more limited resource in her mind. Thus sex is usually reserved for people she has some level of relationship with. I don’t care how slutty a girl claims to be very few of them do a lot of “just for the hell of it” sex and feel ok about it. She may not need to be dating for six months to relax and enjoy sex but rarely is she really ok with one night stands.

Guys are very different. They want sex for sexes own sake. They want girlfriends for sex and relationship. But they will happily take the sex without the relationship. As a matter of fact a huge portion of them would prefer it without the added complications of relationships until “they” are ready to settle down or they want some girlfriend perks for awhile.

This is biologically driven and culturally reinforced as ok.

I have known several co-workers who admitted they were living with a woman because she was a good cook and the sex was great. They were never going to marry her, they were even actively looking for another girlfriend. But they figured they weren’t cheating on her since they would “break up” with her before they had sex with the new girlfriend once they found her. So they had decided the relationship was over but weren’t bothering to tell their partner yet since it would deprive them of a cook and sex partner before they had another picked out.

This is part of why women become man haters. Trust me the women in question feel “used” later, even if they enjoyed the sex at the time.

I am a woman in a man’s field. I have spent most of my life being part of the boy’s club. So much so that I recall sitting in a study hall and having some of my study buddies ask my advice about dating by starting “Lynette if you were a girl would you…yada ”

I haven’t learned the depths of men’s willingness to use women from my personal romantic relationships; I have learned it from being buddies with guys and getting to hear what they really think about the girls they are dating.

3) Gullibility – Many men lie and emotionally pressure and manipulate woman to get the sex they want. Like pressuring them to have sex without condoms.

I personally like a fair range of kinky, but I know a lot of women who feel pressured to do things they don’t particularly like or feel comfortable with far too often.

I recall one man who accused me of being a lair because during the weeks we were flirting before having sex I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs. He said were only having sex 2-3 times a day and I always started using my hands in addition to my mouth once we hit about 10 min if he hadn’t had his big O. So obviously I had misrepresented myself. He was trying to make me feel guilty because his idea of a BJ was mouth action only until he finished and he didn’t want to do anything on the weekends beside have sex and watch TV, while I liked having a social life beyond just being with him. The problem I had wasn’t that he wanted something he wasn’t getting; it is that instead of asking and being willing to compromise he went strait for trying to make me feel like a bad “woman” who was inadequate in bed.

Sadly from my girl friends I have learned this is very VERY common. Men watch a lot of porn, get crazy ideas in their heads and then get annoyed at the women in their life if reality isn’t as fun as they thought it would be. And the problem is too many women buy into it out of guilt and worry about losing their guy.

4) Gratitude – men usually have egos and you bet your ass they expect gratitude.

Gratitude that they have favored the girl with time and attention, lord help her if they actually spent money or effort on her. They expect this gratitude to be shown in praise followed by sex. Followed then by extra super duper gratitude if she actually enjoyed the sex.

Oh the litany of crap I have heard about how ungrateful women are especially from geeky “nice guys” who were making a play under the guise of being a nice friend and it didn’t work out. I could write a book. I am sorry boys but these days’ prostitutes cost more than dinner and a movie, they even cost more than helping her move her furniture and setting up her DVD player.

And the complaints about all the extra effort he went to make sure she had an orgasm too and she didn’t even seem to notice. Hey she noticed the orgasm, sorry if she didn’t notice that pleasing her was a chore she should be grateful for beyond letting you get yours too.

And my all time favorite to date “He had shared his body with her and she didn’t even appreciate it enough to XYZ”

I could have laughed myself sick if it hadn’t made me want to beat the shit out of him and then go home and cry.

I would go into this more but I have to get back to work and my blood pressure is already too high.

AGAIN – This is not all men or even a majority of men, but sadly it is a growing segment of the male population. The new “standard” that girls are supposed to put out on a third date combined with the gripe that equal means they need to start picking up the tabs has really started to give some guys a sense of entitlement that hasn’t come with a reciprocating sense of equal behavior change.

They are no more gracious about chick flicks or other things that make girls feel happy and fulfilled than they ever were. If anything they are even less gracious about jumping though the hoops that make her happy since they feel that just being the “boy friend” means they are entitled to at least some amount of sex.

The fact that I personally am very picky about who I sleep with but once I start having sex with somebody I tend to be cheap, easy and exceedingly slutty means I don’t run into most of these problems directly. I even had one boyfriend break-up with me because he was tired of being the “girl” in our relationship. However just because I don’t deal with these issues that often myself doesn’t mean I am not aware of the toll they are taking on other women.

And younger and younger girls are really feeling the pressure. I mean seriously, in spite of my personal taste in regards to giving BJ’s I cannot imagine what it must be like to feel in High School that being unwilling to do that meant I wasn’t going to have a boyfriend. Which I am given to understand is something many teen girls are struggling with today. Not the FREEDOM to enjoy sex, but the PRESSURE to engage in sex acts or be socially left out.
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William Boykin
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Don't mince words, Meerkat....

Tell us what you REALLY feel about the modern dating scene.......!

*Ducking for cover and getting FAR FAR away from my computer tonight.........*

Darilian
(Don't worry, we luv ya! )

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Rick Weckermann
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At first for 1) i would answer "come to Canada. Next i was hoping you talking about advise about a new game. Now i wonder why there is no game like this out there?
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Andrew Rowse
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1.
Interestingly, almost every woman I've dated was already taking the pill for non-contraceptive uses. I understand that it is used as a hormone/mood stabiliser as often as a contraceptive.

I was a late bloomer. I wasn't pretty enough to get sex based on my looks, and I wasn't suave enough to trick girls into thinking that I was dreamy. By the time I actually figured out how to convince girls to let me bed them, I had also figured out the sort of person I actually wanted to be, and was a (at least moderately) nice guy. Having had a fairly stable family life and good role models, I was more interested in finding a girlfriend to fall in love with than in finding somebody to fuck.

2.
Of course, it took quite a few years to mature to the point where I could be a decent enough judge of the girls' character, and more than a few bad partner decisions on the way. I've had the occasional meaningless encounter, but made sure that the girl knew as well as I did how little I intended to have anything to do with her long term.

3.
My fiancee and I have discussed in moderate detail what sorts of kink we're interested in. But we seem both happy to accept that anything the other party gives is a gift for both parties to enjoy. If only one of us is going to enjoy an act, that act is probably not going to happen. Perhaps I'm atypical in that for me it has been the girl who has tried to impose unprotected sex. She may have been trying to get pregnant, for leverage. She was one of the bad partner decisions.

4.
I can't imagine expecting a girl to feel gratitude for me sharing my body with her. Perhaps it's so many teenage years of girls being thoroughly ungrateful for even the offer of my body. My body traditionally has a low perceived value. Luckily I have recently found an enthusiastic investor.

Being a boyfriend does entitle you to a certain amount of sex, just as being a girlfriend does. If the partners cannot agree on the amount of sex that each other is entitled to, IT IS A BAD RELATIONSHIP.

Like you, I prefer to take time to get to know the person before escalating things. I think one of the biggest problems is that kids feel pressure to be in relationships, even when they;re not ready or they don't especially like their partner. Society's normalisation of sex for teenagers is unhealthy. It was better when sex was something only bad teenagers did.

I remember that when I was at high school, there was the truism that kids should go about activities in groups, not couples. I abided by that rule, and never ran into any difficulties regarding sex.

Of course, my group was a bunch of fellow dorks, and the activity was Magic the Gathering...
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Well, there are a segment of men, maybe as many as half, that are just assholes. I'm 30 and haven't been in the dating seen for quite a few years; however, I always pay for dinner and still do so with my wife (even though it is "our" money).

I think it is treat women like ladies; it might even sound sexist, but it isn't intended in that manner. I treat almost everyone I encounter with respect and I still adhere to a few old-fahioned maxims like: hold the door open for women without expecting a thank you, give my seat up for women, give special consideration for women and children in numerous circumstances.'

A lot of children today (read: college freshman) haven't been taught how to respect anyone. If they don't respect professors or the elderly, I am not surprised they don't respect a girlfriend (or boyfriend).

I think there is a misbelief among men that being a man means that you can physically dominate a woman or control her otherwise through manipulation via guilt as you mentioned above; in fact, this is some of the attitude that leads to many abusive relationships. It is much more manly to be able to restrain from abusing your place in the relationship (whether that is "quality time" or physical dominance) and providing true support and respect to another person.

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Yikes!

That was quite a rant. Hey! What's this?

Quote:
I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs.


You know... we don't live that far away. If we shared the fuel costs and --

OUCH!

Jeez, how the hell did you throw a tire iron 200 miles that quickly?
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Lynette
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DWTripp wrote:
Yikes!

That was quite a rant.


I know, I feel kinda bad about that. Something in the previous thread with a personal slant kind of helped me blow a gasket, which I don't do often but now I think I should have waited until tomorrow to reply.


Quote:
Hey! What's this?

Quote:
I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs.


You know... we don't live that far away. If we shared the fuel costs and --

OUCH!

Jeez, how the hell did you throw a tire iron 200 miles that quickly?


laugh laugh laugh

Ah Trippy... Thanks I needed that.
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Ah Trippy... Thanks I needed that.


Well, probably not as much as I need a bl---

Never mind.
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Meerkat wrote:

1) Sex is not “cheap” for women. Even assuming she is completely successful at not getting pregnant as Dar pointed out in the previous thread all the “costs” of birth control usually fall to her. The pill averages between $20-50 a month and that is with subsidies and/or insurance. The mandatory yearly exam $50-200 depending again on coverage. So she pays $35-50 a month, plus all the aggravation and potential hormonal affects just to maintain the capacity of having sex without stressing out any month she is 30 minutes late starting her flow.

Throw in the occasional Dr bill to deal with bladder and/or yeast infections and then the possible financial costs of dealing with a pregnancy alone if the birth control fails.

This is just medical costs.

Now let us talk about opportunity costs.

Average Man getting ready for a date usually put on some medium quality clothing and goes. Probably whitey tighties for underwear, probably wears tennis shoes, might wear loafers like at work. Might use some $15/bottle cologne might not. Might be smart and actually have $2 worth of condoms on him.

Average Woman getting ready for a date, some of her best (more expensive) clothing, make-up, nails done (often $15-40), perfume almost always (often $60/bottle), special pricy shoes, special pricy underwear, possibly even a trip to get everything all trimmed and waxed.

Lets face it guys you like this crap. It isn’t just women doing it to them selves. You might bang somebody in sweats, but your head turns and you drool when you see the hotsy fashion plate walk by.

So again women have already laid out some serious money on average when they “go out”

So how come it is that a growing segment of the male population think they are being taken advantage of unfairly if they buy some drinks and/or dinner and don’t get laid.

Hell I have more arguments every year with guys who are getting laid and think that after the 3rd date (you know the magic one where you are supposed to get laid these days) it should be understood that the check alternates. Cause gee they are both getting the enjoyment of the dating and the sex right?

Men are supposed to get a yearly testicular exam. Thankfully we don't get yeast infections all too often (though we do tend to carry things that will give the ladies one).

She can go on the pill if she wants. A condom is needed to stop STDs anyway, so it's not incredibly important.

Every guy and girl I know doesn't necessarily go on fancy ass first dates. There is no obligation to where perfume or anything. Make-up is generally the same as used normally.

No girl I know wears "sweats"... ever.

It's also abnormal to buy the other person's meal or drinks (unless you're trying to pick them up, but that happens with both the guys and girls).

Counting to 3 dates until you have sex is odd. It's not even easy to count what constitutes a date. Some have sex the first time they meet. Some don't until much later for a myriad of reasons. Both the guys and girls are gauging when to have sex. I don't see it as a one-sided onslaught of pressure.

Quote:
2) Easiness - reasons for having sex – While there are exceptions to every rule, the old adage comes to mind, women trade sex for love, men trade love for sex comes to mind.

I would replace love with relationship and quality time for much of today’s younger culture, but the core of the adage is still true. Women want/need quality time, preferably with somebody they feel connected too. That is why they spend so much time talking with girl friends. They don’t/can’t disassociate this need just because you add the possibility of sex. If anything it becomes greater. You can have a dozen friends simultaneously and nobody thinks anything of it. You cannot be sleeping with a dozen different guys and not feel stretched and trashy.

So who she is going to be sleeping with is important because it is a more limited resource in her mind. Thus sex is usually reserved for people she has some level of relationship with. I don’t care how slutty a girl claims to be very few of them do a lot of “just for the hell of it” sex and feel ok about it. She may not need to be dating for six months to relax and enjoy sex but rarely is she really ok with one night stands.

Guys are very different. They want sex for sexes own sake. They want girlfriends for sex and relationship. But they will happily take the sex without the relationship. As a matter of fact a huge portion of them would prefer it without the added complications of relationships until “they” are ready to settle down or they want some girlfriend perks for awhile.

This is biologically driven and culturally reinforced as ok.

I have known several co-workers who admitted they were living with a woman because she was a good cook and the sex was great. They were never going to marry her, they were even actively looking for another girlfriend. But they figured they weren’t cheating on her since they would “break up” with her before they had sex with the new girlfriend once they found her. So they had decided the relationship was over but weren’t bothering to tell their partner yet since it would deprive them of a cook and sex partner before they had another picked out.

This is part of why women become man haters. Trust me the women in question feel “used” later, even if they enjoyed the sex at the time.

I am a woman in a man’s field. I have spent most of my life being part of the boy’s club. So much so that I recall sitting in a study hall and having some of my study buddies ask my advice about dating by starting “Lynette if you were a girl would you…yada ”

I haven’t learned the depths of men’s willingness to use women from my personal romantic relationships; I have learned it from being buddies with guys and getting to hear what they really think about the girls they are dating.

That adage is retarded. The 50 or so people I know well enough must be an anomaly in your universe. They all want differing amounts of sex and relationships. I don't see an overwhelming trend to either gender. One of my roommates (male) won't have sex until he's in a meaningful relationship. A girl I'm acquainted with has a boyfriend, but they have an "open" relationship because she really likes sex with multiple partners (while he's happy with just her).

Quote:
3) Gullibility – Many men lie and emotionally pressure and manipulate woman to get the sex they want. Like pressuring them to have sex without condoms.

I personally like a fair range of kinky, but I know a lot of women who feel pressured to do things they don’t particularly like or feel comfortable with far too often.

I recall one man who accused me of being a lair because during the weeks we were flirting before having sex I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs. He said were only having sex 2-3 times a day and I always started using my hands in addition to my mouth once we hit about 10 min if he hadn’t had his big O. So obviously I had misrepresented myself. He was trying to make me feel guilty because his idea of a BJ was mouth action only until he finished and he didn’t want to do anything on the weekends beside have sex and watch TV, while I liked having a social life beyond just being with him. The problem I had wasn’t that he wanted something he wasn’t getting; it is that instead of asking and being willing to compromise he went strait for trying to make me feel like a bad “woman” who was inadequate in bed.

Sadly from my girl friends I have learned this is very VERY common. Men watch a lot of porn, get crazy ideas in their heads and then get annoyed at the women in their life if reality isn’t as fun as they thought it would be. And the problem is too many women buy into it out of guilt and worry about losing their guy.

Everyone lies, the gender doesn't matter.

That guy sounds like he'd never had sex before in his life. Even my jaw goes numb after 10 minutes and I don't have a sausage in it (though that's not enough to stop me, om nom nom). WTF is up with his controlling ass. Everyone I know has an active social life, so a hermit isn't likely to get a second "date". Well, unless you consider playing games all day with a bunch of geeks hermit activity.

So... they watch porn... and then when the real sex happens their delusions are blown? Maybe more experience with the real thing and less wrestling of the one eyed wonder weasel would do them some good. Anyone who has had sex regularly shouldn't be that delusional.

Why do all the women you know have such low self esteem? If the men are so sex crazed and the woman hold the only key, then why not use that to their advantage? Why worry about losing a bunch of losers?

This is some kind of bizzaro world you're talking about. Where all the woman abused as children? Why do they think so lowly of themselves? How did the men because such arrogant tools? There should be a healthy mix of self-loathing men and woman. Arrogant tools and tooletts.
Quote:
4) Gratitude – men usually have egos and you bet your ass they expect gratitude.

Gratitude that they have favored the girl with time and attention, lord help her if they actually spent money or effort on her. They expect this gratitude to be shown in praise followed by sex. Followed then by extra super duper gratitude if she actually enjoyed the sex.

Oh the litany of crap I have heard about how ungrateful women are especially from geeky “nice guys” who were making a play under the guise of being a nice friend and it didn’t work out. I could write a book. I am sorry boys but these days’ prostitutes cost more than dinner and a movie, they even cost more than helping her move her furniture and setting up her DVD player.

And the complaints about all the extra effort he went to make sure she had an orgasm too and she didn’t even seem to notice. Hey she noticed the orgasm, sorry if she didn’t notice that pleasing her was a chore she should be grateful for beyond letting you get yours too.

And my all time favorite to date “He had shared his body with her and she didn’t even appreciate it enough to XYZ”

I could have laughed myself sick if it hadn’t made me want to beat the shit out of him and then go home and cry.

I would go into this more but I have to get back to work and my blood pressure is already too high.

"Spent money on her" That just sounds wrong. What is she a prostitute? There should be no exchange of money going on. If you do pay for the other persons stuff and you use that as blackmail for sex you'll get dropped on your ass in no time.

Why doesn't the geeky friend just ask if their is any physical attraction? If he's a friend he'll be around anyway. If he disappears because she doesn't find him attractive he's a sleazeball.

Every person I know assumes the sex is for both of them. Maybe that's because one of them isn't paid to be their.

Quote:
AGAIN – This is not all men or even a majority of men, but sadly it is a growing segment of the male population. The new “standard” that girls are supposed to put out on a third date combined with the gripe that equal means they need to start picking up the tabs has really started to give some guys a sense of entitlement that hasn’t come with a reciprocating sense of equal behavior change.

They are no more gracious about chick flicks or other things that make girls feel happy and fulfilled than they ever were. If anything they are even less gracious about jumping though the hoops that make her happy since they feel that just being the “boy friend” means they are entitled to at least some amount of sex.

The fact that I personally am very picky about who I sleep with but once I start having sex with somebody I tend to be cheap, easy and exceedingly slutty means I don’t run into most of these problems directly. I even had one boyfriend break-up with me because he was tired of being the “girl” in our relationship. However just because I don’t deal with these issues that often myself doesn’t mean I am not aware of the toll they are taking on other women.

And younger and younger girls are really feeling the pressure. I mean seriously, in spite of my personal taste in regards to giving BJ’s I cannot imagine what it must be like to feel in High School that being unwilling to do that meant I wasn’t going to have a boyfriend. Which I am given to understand is something many teen girls are struggling with today. Not the FREEDOM to enjoy sex, but the PRESSURE to engage in sex acts or be socially left out.
They should start having sex as soon as both of them feel like having sex. I don't get this 3rd date stuff. Money is always separate until a relationship is started and one of them starts moving shit into the other ones living space.

Chick flicks are just as stupid as action hero movies. Real people talk about their real needs and real emotions. If somebody is in a relationship meaningful enough to be a "boy friend" they better be having sex or have some kind of agreement between the two of them. I don't know anyone who has a romantic relationship and doesn't have sex. That seems like an oxymoron.

Unwilling to give a blowjob or go down on a girl is really prudish. I don't know a single person who doesn't. Different people have different urges, and if they don't sync up then okay. Girl likes it on top, but guy hates it; that's not going to work. One likes anal play the other doesn't; not going to work.

If somebody wanted to have sex with the lights off and half their clothes still on; I'm sure they'd have a hard time finding a partner. The same goes for touching privates with just your hands. Again, for putting them in your mouth. It's just a default for everyone I know. Nobody would be shocked to see a vibrator of any kind either. Nipple clamps aren't alarming either. Unless it's some kink like bondage nobody I know is going to care.
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I just saw this thread as I was making one last BGG check before retiring. I read it in it's entirety. I am wondering what age group you are talking about here. (BTW, Tripp and I are each other's evil twin. That's right, neither of us is the good guy). Anyway there is an awful lot to comment on and I don't have the energy tonight to get into an in depth post but thanks for the entertainment so far.
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Not that anything in the OP was new to me, but I didn't think anyone would complain about it. Why? Because, as far as relationship goes, nobody has to go or do anything they are not willing to do. There's always the possibility of getting out, leaving it all behind.

Nobody forces anyone to date a jerk. Nobody is forced to have to wear expensive perfume on a date, wear fancy clothes, or get a brazilian wax. A real relationship that has any chances of going anywhere has to be based on something more meaningful than how much anyone prepares for the date. And if all someone want is sex, then they know in advance how much they are willing to sacrifice for it.

I've never made a woman have to prepare for a date any more than they would in any particular day: If anything, I've told woman that they shouldn't have gone so far. I've not traded the illusion of love for sex, and not continued dating a woman that I knew I'd not be able to have a long term relationship with. This has led me to turn down a quite a few very nice women, if just to avoid making things worse for them down the road. I just think it's the humane thing to do, because that's what I wish anyone would do to me if the situation was reversed.

And yet, despite all of this lack of deceit, this self-sabotage, I'm still happily married with a gamer that pesters me to get tickets to BGG con. The victory conditions can be met without having to be an ass. I'll do my best to teach it to my son, and wish everyone else did the same.
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William Boykin
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Hibikr wrote:



I've never made a woman have to prepare for a date any more than they would in any particular day: If anything, I've told woman that they shouldn't have gone so far. I've not traded the illusion of love for sex, and not continued dating a woman that I knew I'd not be able to have a long term relationship with. This has led me to turn down a quite a few very nice women, if just to avoid making things worse for them down the road. I just think it's the humane thing to do, because that's what I wish anyone would do to me if the situation was reversed.

And yet, despite all of this lack of deceit, this self-sabotage, I'm still happily married with a gamer that pesters me to get tickets to BGG con. The victory conditions can be met without having to be an ass. I'll do my best to teach it to my son, and wish everyone else did the same.


Whatever to the idea of 'Latin Romance' I keep hearing about? I mean, isn't Spain the land of Julio Iglesias, Antonio Banderas and the Macarena??

Where's the romance, man?!!!!

I guess there have to nerds and geeks even in the romantic land of Spain. Would explain why you moved here......

Darilian
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This Guy
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I don't think I'm represented by your statistical sample of most/many/men, Meerkat.
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Clay
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Meerkat wrote:


Average Woman getting ready for a date, some of her best (more expensive) clothing, make-up, nails done (often $15-40), perfume almost always (often $60/bottle), special pricy shoes, special pricy underwear, possibly even a trip to get everything all trimmed and waxed.

Lets face it guys you like this crap. It isn’t just women doing it to them selves. You might bang somebody in sweats, but your head turns and you drool when you see the hotsy fashion plate walk by.



I don't plan on sticking with this thread long, but I would just like to note here that I, in fact, do not like 'that crap'. In fact, I find it exceedingly superficial and a pointless waste of money, time and resources. Even looking beyond my own views for a moment, every society since the dawn of humanity has had its own views of beauty, so that fact alone proves that this simply isn't some universal truth.

Let's face it, you do do this to yourself. Why? Probably because you live in a society that values it, for not reason other than it does. This has been ingrained in your sensibilities and you feel obligated on some level to follow through in order to catch someone you, in turn, feel is worthwhile. If you do not feel obligated, than either you wouldn't continue to do so, or you must be doing it for some other reason... such as your self.

The lesson? Do not try to pigeonhole groups of people into a certain viewpoint, least of all one as massive as an entire gender. Your argument will just fall flat on its face if you do.
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Jorge Montero
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Darilian wrote:

Whatever to the idea of 'Latin Romance' I keep hearing about? I mean, isn't Spain the land of Julio Iglesias, Antonio Banderas and the Macarena??

Where's the romance, man?!!!!

I guess there have to nerds and geeks even in the romantic land of Spain. Would explain why you moved here......

Darilian
Yes, Jorge, I am jerking your chain. Forgive me.



Haven't you seen a picture of me? I don't look much like my man Banderas

And yet, you've given me yet another opportunity to boast and claim my cultural superiority, mwahahahaha.

My behavior and views towards relationships have a lot to do with the much harder mating environment that us Spaniards have back home. The Spanish woman is tough and proud, so the superficial fluff that Americans call romance doesn't get you very far over there. The work required to lower a good Spanish woman's barriers involves a lot more work, not a big wallet. Too much work to dedicate to someone that isn't worth it long term. Is there anything more romantic than knowing that the man pursuing the girl actually means it?

Unfortunately, I can't tell you about all the surefire techniques that have run through Spanish families for generations, because they are just too dangerous for untrained men to use in the wild. The last time an American tried to use a secret Spanish technique, he was torn to pieces, as a dozen models pulled from his limbs, just for a chance of spending a night with him. It's all for your protection.
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William Boykin
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Hibikir wrote:

Haven't you seen a picture of me? I don't look much like my man Banderas


Pics or it isn't true!!

Either that, or you're saying you look like Guillermo del Toro....

Darilian
 
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I just have to say... being a simple country boy with no desire to cast aspersions towards sophisticated big-city dating... I happen to like wimmin' who wear a plain white tee to showcase their ample wares, tucked into a tight pair of well-worn Levi's or Wranglers.

That I use words like aspersion in no way reduces my credentials for being a simple country boy. The fact remains, I'm kind of old school and I fully expect to pay up if I invite. Whether it's buying all the evening's Coors Light rounds while two-steppin' on the dance floor or just paying for the shells if we decide to go pop a few caps at random wildlife.

Jorge - I spent some time in your country of origin. Back then it was tough to get laid in Spain. Unless you went to those special parts of the city. And usually they were populated by sultry French ladies down from Paris or Nice to make a buck off us mariners.
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Meerkat wrote:

1) Sex is not "cheap" for women. Even assuming she is completely successful at not getting pregnant as Dar pointed out in the previous thread all the "costs" of birth control usually fall to her. The pill averages between $20-50 a month and that is with subsidies and/or insurance. The mandatory yearly exam $50-200 depending again on coverage. So she pays $35-50 a month, plus all the aggravation and potential hormonal affects just to maintain the capacity of having sex without stressing out any month she is 30 minutes late starting her flow.

Throw in the occasional Dr bill to deal with bladder and/or yeast infections and then the possible financial costs of dealing with a pregnancy alone if the birth control fails.

The women I've dated shouldn't have much to say about the "expense" of dating. I have paid for (estimating) 80% of of the dates and recreational activities I've enjoyed with dates and girlfriends in the past, and those things are expensive. You could wrap up what I spend in a week or two into a year's worth of the costs you listed above. And that's not just me. At least in the social groups I've been a part of, the guys foot the bill for the majority of the dating expense.
-dinners
-drinks
-trips
-admissions (movies, shows, covers, tickets, etc.)
The reason a lot of us guys expect to and do pay more is that we usually have more money. In general guys tend to date younger women and women tend to date older guys. So the older individual in a relationship is likely to have a higher income. Add that men tend to make more than a woman (right?) and you end up with the guy paying a lot of the time. I'm totally okay with that.

I like it like this:

-Let me pay most of the time
-Offer to pay sometimes (roughly 10-25% depending on her ability to do so) just so I know she wants to contribute
-Thank me when I do something nice in the same way I'll thank her for all the various nice things she does for me

I don't think anyone should be "indebted" to me for paying, but I don't like feeling taken advantage of. I could cite examples of women who expected me to pay for everything from the first date on without any sort of gratitude just like you can cite guys who demand gratitude for the smallest accommodations.

And what if a woman makes as much or more than I make? Should I be paying anyway? I've actually only been in that situation once. I was paying for every date for two weeks and only after two weeks did I find out that she actually made more than I did as she was bragging about how much money she was saving and investing. Women shouldn't be "profiting" financially from dating me.

Meerkat wrote:

Average Man getting ready for a date usually put on some medium quality clothing and goes. Probably whitey tighties for underwear, probably wears tennis shoes, might wear loafers like at work. Might use some $15/bottle cologne might not. Might be smart and actually have $2 worth of condoms on him.

Average Woman getting ready for a date, some of her best (more expensive) clothing, make-up, nails done (often $15-40), perfume almost always (often $60/bottle), special pricy shoes, special pricy underwear, possibly even a trip to get everything all trimmed and waxed.

Wow, that doesn't describe me but I don't date guys so I wouldn't know what the "average" guy does.

Some of the things you list that a woman does to get ready are done for the the guy. But I contend (and I've had a lot of girls admit it) that a LOT of the stuff gals spend money on is done to impress other women. Specifically, nails, bags, shoes, name brand stuff to name a few. Guys want her to look "nice" but I wouldn't think twice if she had done her own nails or if she's wearing Target's finest clothing. In fact, guys get concerned when she looks too "high maintenance" because we wonder whether we'll be expected to pay for a lot of expensive things and we don't want her to be looking in the mirror every 15 minutes.
Meerkat wrote:

Lets face it guys you like this crap. It isn’t just women doing it to them selves. You might bang somebody in sweats, but your head turns and you drool when you see the hotsy fashion plate walk by.

So again women have already laid out some serious money on average when they "go out"

Guys like looks, but not necessarily all the primping and painting. I'll admit that we're more into the superficial than women but we like beauty and seeing skin, not necessarily the nails, shoes, and hair, which are the things that "cost".
Meerkat wrote:

So how come it is that a growing segment of the male population think they are being taken advantage of unfairly if they buy some drinks and/or dinner and don’t get laid.

Well if a guy is demanding that for buying drinks, he's an ass. However, I know for a fact, because they tell me, that some women go out to bars without any money and expect to get free drinks all night. I think there is a "happy medium" to be had. I don't buy a drink right away. If you don't buy a drink right off and she's gone in three minutes, either she is there to score free drinks and doesn't want to waste time on me, or she's just not interested and it would have been pointless anyway. Side note: Meeting people at the bar isn't the best route.
Meerkat wrote:

I have known several co-workers who admitted they were living with a woman because she was a good cook and the sex was great. They were never going to marry her, they were even actively looking for another girlfriend. But they figured they weren’t cheating on her since they would "break up" with her before they had sex with the new girlfriend once they found her. So they had decided the relationship was over but weren’t bothering to tell their partner yet since it would deprive them of a cook and sex partner before they had another picked out.

That's a big problem if he's lying about it. There are a lot of jerks who lie and there are a lot of needy women who are willing to put up with a guy who doesn't actually lie but he won't speak to a specific level of commitment or he'll be intentionally vague all the time. So if a woman is being lied to or deliberately mislead, the guy is completely wrong. If a woman is living with a guy and the guy hasn't made any assurances, promises, or proclamations of love or commitment, then she doesn't have much to complain about when he kicks her to the curb.
Meerkat wrote:

4) Gratitude - men usually have egos and you bet your ass they expect gratitude.

Well that's true, and I also expect to thank her when she does something nice for me, in a reciprocating fashion.
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To the OP: I read all your post.
I disagree with the money part.
For the rest... I can see your point. There are differences, cultural, social (and biological) between males and females.
But the main problem is that they are so many people being dishonest and egoistical. I think I could write a similar post about why I think the steorotypical girl attitude to dating and sex is bad.
But thinking about it, I can draw so many parallels between the bad sides of the "dating game" and other human relationships that, besides the obvious cultural slant we guys have still work to overcome, homo homini lupus (man is a wolf for man) still holds.

So... do not blame it on the guys, blame it on people.
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Aetheros wrote:
I don't think I'm represented by your statistical sample of most/many/men, Meerkat.


I'm with Aetheros. Meerkat, you need to hang out with a different group.
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I was prepared for some seriously unfunny sex-talk, but then Meerkat said...

Quote:
Average Man getting ready for a date probably [wears] whitey tighties for underwear


...and I couldn't stop laughing! laugh

And then... chuckle, snort, th-then, she said:

Quote:
recall one man who accused me of being a lair because during the weeks we were flirting before having sex I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs. He said were only having sex 2-3 times a day


buwwhaa? laughlaughlaugh

________________________________

Gender relations are fucked. I've pretty much never been on a "real" date in my life, and haven't been in a relationship with someone who wasn't head-over-heels into me and vice versa in a matter of hours. I just figure if you give the other person time to "count to three" it all goes to shit anyway.

Thanks for making me appreciate my current relationship even more. Now to bring my partner breakfast in bed without expecting the super-duper-gratitude. I'll try to feel manly about it, too (thanks, Steinley!).
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I think any relationship where sex is currency is problematic. What Meerkat describes seems rife with it. I deliberately avoid it in my marriage. The only reason to have sex is because you want to have sex. Any time it's a reward or requirement, then somebody is doing it wrong. If I fix the sink or build a shoe closet, it's because I wanted to do those things, not in expectation of anything outside the task or pleasure of doing something for somebody else.
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steinley wrote:
Well, there are a segment of men, maybe as many as half, that are just assholes.


no, it's 100%.
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AKA Halston Thrombeaux
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Meerkat wrote:
I recall one man who accused me of being a lair because during the weeks we were flirting before having sex I said that I had a fairly high sex drive and enjoyed giving blow-jobs. He said were only having sex 2-3 times a day and I always started using my hands in addition to my mouth once we hit about 10 min if he hadn’t had his big O. So obviously I had misrepresented myself


Wow, you icy b!*$%
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Benny
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That's wonderful. Good for you! I've always wanted to have a haunted house. It's been my lifelong dream!
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The main thrust of your argument seems to be that we are culturally forcing women to behave in an unnatural/unhealthy way. I agree with this, but there seems to be a general assumption that the way men are behaving is their natural asshole state. I'd like to think that men are just as manipulated and pushed towards an unhealthy view of sex as women.

But what exactly should we be aiming for as a society for a healthy view of sex and relationships? I don't see very many people arguing that you are completely wrong, but I think most of us have very different views on what is right. Anybody have anything to say on that.
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