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Panzer Grenadier: Elsenborn Ridge» Forums » General

Subject: Tiger II Endurance rss

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Murray Lewis
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I know Tiger IIs were ridiculously powerful tanks, but it seems a bit silly that in PG:ER they are almost unbeatable by other tanks.

With an armour value of 8, even the M36 with its 8-8 AT fire strength has to roll a 5/5 or higher to do any damage.

Are there any recommended tactics for dealing with these monsters short of heading in for the point-blank +1 bonus?
 
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Wulf Corbett
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Same way as you deal with the Tiger earlier in the war - get the +2 bonus for non-adjacent hex attacks. Better yet, combine the two and get +3...
 
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Murray Lewis
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But to get the +2 one of the attacks has to trace through a non-adjacent hex, so you can't get +3 unless you are attacking with 3 or more tanks, right?
 
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Wulf Corbett
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MurrayL wrote:
But to get the +2 one of the attacks has to trace through a non-adjacent hex, so you can't get +3 unless you are attacking with 3 or more tanks, right?

Well, I've had some difficulty following this particular rule myself, however, here's my thinking. One of the standard tactics in any tank battle was to get a gun round the side of the enemy and shoot him in the flank. Snce PG has no facing rules (thank goodness - one less complexity!), you have to prove you're flanking the target by shooting from two points, one of which (by game ruling, the second) can't be hitting the same facing as the first, and so can't be near the first - and as the intent is to hit the flank, the second gets the bonus. It's not adjacency to the target that matters, but to the other attacker.

There's an article on the APL website about the 'Tiger myth' - the Tiger gained a terrible reputation withy the Allies in Normandy and Italy for it's thick armour, but the fact was it's frontal armour was no thicker than, say, the Churchill, but it's side armour was much thicker, thus rendering flanking attacks less useful. The Advice in the article was, to recreate this, only give a +1 to attacks from non-adjacent hexes against the Tiger.

EDIT: the following bit's wrong - see next post!
Having said that, I may have been running this rule wrong - I had thought the rule says 'target attacked in turn through 2+ non-adjacent hexsides' - meaning the attackers had to be far enough apart, compared to the range, for their fire to enter the target's hex through non-adjacent hexsides. It doesn't - it just says 'target attacked in turn from 2+ non-adjacent hexes' - so any 2 AT attacks from 2 or more hexes apart, at any range, gains this +2 modifier (I assume the first one still doesn't get it, since there hasn't been 2+ attacks at that point!)
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Murray Lewis
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
It doesn't - it just says 'target attacked in turn from 2+ non-adjacent hexes'


The fire table says "+2 if the target is attacked this turn through two or more non-adjacent hexes", not 'from'.
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Wulf Corbett
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Oh, good, I've been getting it right then Serves me right for using unofficial rules summary sheets...

Didn't help my Tiger when the Firefly rolled a 12 to hit though... soblue
 
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Murray Lewis
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Yeah, from what you've said you were playing that rule half-right (you got the 'through' instead of 'from', but it's definately 'hexes' and not 'hexsides').

I look forward to having a game of Panzer Grenadier that doesn't stall every 10 minutes for someone to look up an obscure rule
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Wulf Corbett
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Here's that article, by the way
http://www.avalanchepress.com/SteelTigers.php
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Xander Fulton
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MurrayL wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
It doesn't - it just says 'target attacked in turn from 2+ non-adjacent hexes'


The fire table says "+2 if the target is attacked this turn through two or more non-adjacent hexes", not 'from'.


Yeah, but I think this is a case of rule text not matching intent.

Take these examples:



In the third case, no bonus shot is possible, because the fire comes from 'adjacent' hexsides in the target hex. In the fourth case, fire through both hexes is equidistant...so whether a bonus shot is possible or not depends on if firing through 0402 is valid (if there is a hill there, for example - or friendly armor units - then you cannot fire through that hex, and fire hitting from the hexside facing 0303 gets no bonus).
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Wulf Corbett
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You're stalking me now
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Wulf Corbett
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XanderF wrote:
In the fourth case, fire through both hexes is equidistant...so whether a bonus shot is possible or not depends on if firing through 0402 is valid (if there is a hill there, for example - or friendly armor units - then you cannot fire through that hex, and fire hitting from the hexside facing 0303 gets no bonus).

Hold on - I don't actually disagree with this, but where does it say that friendly tanks block AT fire? 8.33 & 7.24 (3rd edition rules) make it clear that non-armoured friendly units block Direct fire, but I see nothing about blocking AT fire... I thought there was, but I can't find it...
 
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Xander Fulton
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
XanderF wrote:
In the fourth case, fire through both hexes is equidistant...so whether a bonus shot is possible or not depends on if firing through 0402 is valid (if there is a hill there, for example - or friendly armor units - then you cannot fire through that hex, and fire hitting from the hexside facing 0303 gets no bonus).

Hold on - I don't actually disagree with this, but where does it say that friendly tanks block AT fire? 8.33 & 7.24 (3rd edition rules) make it clear that non-armoured friendly units block Direct fire, but I see nothing about blocking AT fire... I thought there was, but I can't find it...


I think ur right on that. Still - terrain could block the shot.
 
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Terry Perdue
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The Tiger II's are nasty, but they are slow, and they come at a time when Allied airpower is deadly. I have more Tigers knocked out by Soviet airpower than by Soviet tanks.
When I play Allied, I like to rush the Tigers with AT Infantry, and use my light skinned armored vehicles to kill his troops and tanks. Of course, a smart German player is going to keep infantry with his Tigers, as he should.
They arent easy to kill, but in 1944-45, you should be able to knock them out with AT Troops and Air.
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