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Subject: 2009 Printing box front rss

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John Bohrer
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Latest Printing, Same Game.


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Hélio Andrade
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No name of the game designer on the box cover? Wow, that's new. Or is it there but with invisible ink?
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helioa wrote:
No name of the game designer on the box cover? Wow, that's new. Or is it there but with invisible ink?


I think it's best to stop beating that horse.

It's DEAD, Jim.
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Thomas Taylor
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Pretty.

And to the above poster, just like Pat Hirtle. A dead horse.
 
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Tygo wrote:
Pretty.

And to the above poster, just like Pat Hirtle. A dead horse.


I don't get the reference.

Does it have to do with Age of Steam?
 
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Chris Johnson
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locusshifter wrote:
helioa wrote:
No name of the game designer on the box cover? Wow, that's new. Or is it there but with invisible ink? ;)


I think it's best to stop beating that horse.

It's DEAD, Jim.


So, we're now OK with leaving the designer's name off of the box?

And the real question: is Martin Wallace receiving royalties from this edition? And if he's not, please explain why anyone should even consider buying this.
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fnord23 wrote:
And the real question: is Martin Wallace receiving royalties from this edition? And if he's not, please explain why anyone should even consider buying this.


I believe this was resolved between John and Martin, so it is none of our concern (and never should have been any of our concern).

I'm just glad to see good 'ole Age of Steam back in print again!
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Teacher Fletcher
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Certainly, it is our concern as consumers in a niche industry to know what kind of business practices we are supporting.

I had been undecided as to which new printing of Age of Steam / Steam I intended to buy, stating that I would buy "whichever looked nicer to my eyes and felt nicer to my fingers."

Now, however, seeing that the FRED / Bohrer edition does not even do Mr. Wallace the courtesy of crediting him on the box (an offense that not even Hasbro commits on their AH titles), I can not in good conscience support this new release.

I will be buying Steam instead.

I hope that other customers will take this into consideration, and decide whether we want to support a business that removes a designer's credit from the packaging of his own game.
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Martin Wallace
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As much as possible I try not to get involved in public spats on BGG however I think I need to make it clear that I have not sanctioned this production of Age of Steam and that I will not be receiving any royalties from it. Just for the record I have only once received royalties for expansion maps, and that was paid direct to me by Ted Alspach. I have never received any royalties for Age of Steam expansion maps from Winsome Games.

Martin Wallace
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Chris Johnson
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:

I believe this was resolved between John and Martin, so it is none of our concern (and never should have been any of our concern).


I've seen nothing to indicate that; I'd love to see a link. Assuming you have more to go on than your "belief", of course. ;)

It may not be your concern, but it is certainly mine, and others, who believe game designers should be compensated for use of their work.

Given the cluster**** that this whole situation has been, I'm taking nothing for granted without seeing something from the principals, and I'm certainly not going to even consider buying this unless Martin is getting paid.

Quote:
I'm just glad to see good 'ole Age of Steam back in print again!


I'm sure that is the attitude that both Mr. Bohrer and FRED are depending on. :/
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Chris Johnson
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Frog1 wrote:


*snip Martin's post*



Well, that's it then.

Somehow, I'm not surprised at either Mr. Bohrer or FRED.



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Jesse Dean
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Oof. I was just about to the point where I was considering getting Age of Steam since it was going to be first to market and I am really excited about playing this sort of game. However, the lack of Mr. Wallace's name on the box and the note that he is not being compensated for his design, has almost killed that idea entirely. I am very, very torn.
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Teacher Fletcher
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Oof. I was just about to the point where I was considering getting Age of Steam since it was going to be first to market and I am really excited about playing this sort of game. However, the lack of Mr. Wallace's name on the box and the note that he is not being compensated for his design, has almost killed that idea entirely. I am very, very torn.


A quick look at your profile indicates that you own several dozen games that could keep you busy gaming until the release of Steam.

Whatever industry you work in, please consider whether you would want us to use our money to support a company that is profiting from your work without money or attribution going to you.

I personally think we should create an organized movement on BGG to boycott the release of the FRED edition. I believe we should also send letters to our favorite online retailers and FLGS asking them to consider not stocking this edition.
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J C Lawrence
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Lawnjob wrote:
Now, however, seeing that the FRED / Bohrer edition does not even do Mr. Wallace the courtesy of crediting him on the box (an offense that not even Hasbro commits on their AH titles), I can not in good conscience support this new release.


Actually designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits. However ven now many titles by standard German publishers don't credit the designer on the box. Many do, but almost as many don't.

And as for Avalon Hill? They have very rarely credited their designers.
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Pasta Batman
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
I am very, very torn.
I'm not torn at all. Steam is coming within a few months, and AoS 'classic' will be playable on it (although you'll have to scrounge up the original rules by some means). Also, Mayfair is taking care to allow 'standard' sized AoS maps to be placed on top of the new board w/o obscuring Steam game elements.
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Jesse Dean
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Yes, I do find that particular action unacceptable, which is why I am so torn. There are many things that are grabbing at me, preventing if from being an easy decision. I would prefer to have the "better" version of the game, and I am not yet convinced Steam will be better than Age of Steam. Also losing the ability to play all of the Age of Steam extra maps is a major blow.

However, while I like many of the games that Winsome puts out, and regardless of the results of the copyright dispute, not giving Wallace his due and refusing to put his name on the box (and pay him for his work) seems to be unacceptable. Blah.
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Teacher Fletcher
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clearclaw wrote:
Lawnjob wrote:
Now, however, seeing that the FRED / Bohrer edition does not even do Mr. Wallace the courtesy of crediting him on the box (an offense that not even Hasbro commits on their AH titles), I can not in good conscience support this new release.


Actually designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits. However ven now many titles by standard German publishers don't credit the designer on the box. Many do, but almost as many don't.


Relatively novel, sure, so long as you agree that it is now a STANDARD practice within the boutique euro games industry.

For comparison's sake, please see the cover of another game that Winsome licensed, CHICAGO EXPRESS, where the name of the fictional designer Harry Wu is clearly displayed over the title.

So Mr. Bohrer's pseudonym is worthy of designer credit, but not Mr. Wallace's actual name?

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Teacher Fletcher
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doubtofbuddha wrote:
Also losing the ability to play all of the Age of Steam extra maps is a major blow.


Steam's components will be compatible with all of Age of Steam's expansion maps.

If you are concerned about playing by the original Age of Steam ruleset as originally designed by Martin Wallace, I am sure you will be able to find an owner of those pages, either locally or on BGG, willing to "lend" you a copy of them for your perusal.

Good luck, I think you are on track to making the right choice.
 
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J C Lawrence
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Profesor Mora wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Actually designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits. However ven now many titles by standard German publishers don't credit the designer on the box. Many do, but almost as many don't.

And as for Avalon Hill? They have very rarely credited their designers.


Thank you for your illustrative digression. So what?


Designer credits are neither as universal or as valuable as you suggest.
 
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Pasta Batman
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Well, since Mr. Wallace has stated he did not sanction this production, and obviously would prefer it didn't exist, it seems very reasonable to think he would not want his name on it, so it seems FRED did the right thing there. But the lack of compensation?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Lawnjob wrote:
Relatively novel, sure, so long as you agree that it is now a STANDARD practice within the boutique euro games industry.


I'm not sure I'd go as far as to call it a standard. It is common to be sure but I see many German games on my self which don't have authorial credits on the box.

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For comparison's sake, please see the cover of another game that Winsome licensed, CHICAGO EXPRESS, where the name of the fictional designer Harry Wu is clearly displayed over the title.


Fictional? I'm less convinced either of Harry's fictionality or existence, though I lean to the credit being accurate simply due to his recent design rate and design quality.

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So Mr. Bohrer's pseudonym is worthy of designer credit, but not Mr. Wallace's actual name?


Do note that Bohrer/Winsome are not the publisher in this case, FRED is. Two different publishers.
 
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Teacher Fletcher
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clearclaw wrote:
Profesor Mora wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Actually designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits. However ven now many titles by standard German publishers don't credit the designer on the box. Many do, but almost as many don't.

And as for Avalon Hill? They have very rarely credited their designers.


Thank you for your illustrative digression. So what?


Designer credits are neither as universal or as valuable as you suggest.


I would submit that you are in no position to determine "value" for another designer being credited on his game's packaging.

Clearly it is of value to Mr. Wallace, as his name appears on the covers of his own Warfrog games, and indeed on his games published by John Bohrer (Pampas Railroads, for example).

If a novelist ends up in a contract dispute over book royalties, does the publishing house begin to put out his books with no author credited on the cover?

Clearly that is a violation that would never be undertaken in a "real world" industry like book publshing, and yet here it is being done and tacitly accepted by a portion of the games-buying market.
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Fred Minard
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Since I missed out on Age of Steam, not once but through 2 print runs. I will be buying the copy that costs less.
 
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clearclaw wrote:
Designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits.

Actually, the man who has always been given the bulk of the credit for this is Alex Randolph. Most of those battles were fought 20 years ago, before Knizia was even published.

As for the rest of the discussion, for a renowned Eurogame like Age of Steam not to have the name of its designer, the equally renowned Martin Wallace, on the box in this day and age is unprecedented. We can speculate about the reasons for that. But no one can deny that this is highly unusual.
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clearclaw wrote:
Profesor Mora wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
Actually designer credits are a very new and relatively novel thing. We can thank Reiner Knizia for their recent popularity: he fought long and hard for designer credits. However ven now many titles by standard German publishers don't credit the designer on the box. Many do, but almost as many don't.

And as for Avalon Hill? They have very rarely credited their designers.


Thank you for your illustrative digression. So what?


Designer credits are neither as universal or as valuable as you suggest.


Designer credit's value is up for debate. Royalties, however, I think are less debatable.
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