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Subject: So it seems like a 2 player game is decided by who gets to go first rss

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Patrick
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Am I wrong? Every game I've played so far the person who went first won.
 
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DC
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dragon of blood wrote:
Am I wrong?


Yes.

Don't know what else to say -- can you explain what you mean? What strategies did you try? Why didn't they work? What fundamental advantage does the first player seem to have?

I've had 2-player games go both ways. Of course, I am not a world-class player.
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Ken Thibodeau
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You have to remember that in a 2-player game, first player alternates every turn, unlike with 3+ players, where you have to place your worker on the 1st-player space
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Greg Jones
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My thoughts also were that maybe you have neglected the rule that 1st player alternates every turn.

It's an advantage to go first in the round, because you have unlimited choices of spaces to put your worker on. Going first first is probably a slight advantage. If the game ends with odd turns you've gone first more often. Also, the first phase of the game might have odd turns, so you'd get off to a better start. However, skill is much more often the deciding factor. Get two players, have them play two games with each going first once. I think the same guy will win both games.
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David Gibbs
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I have played quite a few games of two-player Caylus, since first-player alternates each round, I have noticed no advantage to being first vs second player at the start -- though if there were an odd number of turns in the game, there would, in fact, be a slight advantage to being first player. It would not, I expect, be enough to be game winning except between two perfectly matched expert opponents -- for most anyone else, someone will make an error that is bigger than the first player advantage -- in fact, there will likely be many such errors (as compared to perfect play).
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Sean McCarthy
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http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/100740
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Corin A. Friesen
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dragon of blood wrote:
Am I wrong? Every game I've played so far the person who went first won.

I consistently go first playing against my brother in 2 player games, and I consistently lose.
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Russ Williams
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My SO and I randomly pick who goes first, but I win more often than not.

Also: how many 2-player Caylus games have you actually played before drawing your conclusion about the first player winning? I've played about 10.
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Maciej Welc
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dragon of blood wrote:
Am I wrong? Every game I've played so far the person who went first won.

Is your observation based on at least 20 games? Have you observed different couples playing that game?

There is a lot of 2 player games played at BSW. Maybe that is the place where you can gather information that can help you verify your hypothesis.
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Joseph DiMuro
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dragon of blood wrote:
Am I wrong? Every game I've played so far the person who went first won.


Does your opponent always insist on going first?
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Dylan Shakespeare
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Ambrose wrote:
dragon of blood wrote:
Am I wrong? Every game I've played so far the person who went first won.

I consistently go first playing against my brother in 2 player games, and I consistently lose.

arrrh
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Ryan
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The highest ELO players on BSW (over 2000 rating; you start at 1200 rating) consider going 1st to be worth roughly 1 point. So, unless you start 2nd and lose by 1 point or tie, you can't blame a loss or tie on having started 2nd. Ties and 1 point margin of victories are very rare (I would estimate they happen roughly 2-3% of the time), so I do not see it as a problem. Unless both players play perfectly, it likely won't matter. I've witnessed hundreds of 2ers on BSW, and I have yet to see a game where both players played flawlessly. Someone always makes at least one slight tactical error along the way.

I've also heard it said that going first in Caylus is similar to being White in Chess. I would say it is actually slightly less of an advantage in Caylus but, then again, it's a young game and there is probably only one player at grandmaster level and two at master level. And I wouldn't be surprised if 3-5 years from now the top players then could consistently beat the top players now (even if they are the same people and have simply improved their games).

Also, unlike Chess, Caylus has a randomized starting board, and I actually think that sometimes it may be preferable to start 2nd, depending on the initial board setup.

The link SevenSpirits gave is a very good read for new players, and even some veterans, but some things have changed in the nearly 3 years since Alexfrog wrote it. For one thing going to the castle 2 times, in an attempt to gain a total of 3 phase 1 favors, is inviting trouble. More likely your first visit to the castle will go uncontested, but your second visit will be met with an overbuild of 2 by the other player. So you would have spent 2 workers going to the castle for a total of 2 favors, while the other player went to the castle once for 2 favors. With his other worker he will have gotten an extra cube or $3. He then has the advantage going into phase 2, and the first round of that phase is arguably the most important one of the game since the first stone farms will usually be coming out.
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Jason Sherlock
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No, in a two player game the winner is consistently my girlfriend (who always seems to be able to build the needed prestige buildings just before I canshake ).
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