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Subject: Canoe+Landing Net+Pieceworker question rss

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gregory dewan
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If I have a Canoe (E-30) and a Landing Net (K-126) in play and I land on the "fishing" action space, how much food and/or reed do I collect?

K-268 Pieceworker: Whenever you receive wood, stone, clay, reed, or grain from an action space you can buy 1 more of the same good for 1 food. An extra veggie costs 2 food.
E-30 Canoe: Whenever you use the "fishing" action space, you receive an additional 1 food and 1 reed.
K-126 Landing Net: Whenever you receive reed on an action space, you receive an additional 2 food. This is reduced to 1 food if you receive other building resources as well as reed.

Is the Canoe modifying the "fishing" action space to give X+1 food, and 1 reed, Thus triggering the extra 2 food from the Landing net? Or is the Canoe considered to be directly providing the reed, and not triggering the extra food from the Landing net?
Also, if I have and Canoe(E-30) and a Pieceworker(K-268) in play, am I able to buy an extra reed for 1 food when I land on the "fishing" action space?
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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thedewan wrote:
Is the Canoe modifying the "fishing" action space to give X+1 food, and 1 reed, Thus triggering the extra 2 food from the Landing net? Or is the Canoe considered to be directly providing the reed, and not triggering the extra food from the Landing net?

That depends on what "receiving reeds on an action space means.

It can mean that the reed has to be on the action space, so only the reeds-accumulating action spacers work. (Or perhaps reeds that you receive at the start of the round as well, because they are coming from an action space too?)

Or it can mean that the action on the action space has to give you reeds, so an action space that says "take any resource" also activates the Landing Net (but the Canoe does not.

Or it can mean that you receive reeds as a (direct or indirect) consequence of putting a person on an action space, in which case using the Canoe does activate the Landing Net.

It's unclear which is the correct interpretation.
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Also, if I have and Canoe(E-30) and a Pieceworker(K-268) in play, am I able to buy an extra reed for 1 food when I land on the "fishing" action space?

No. See the appendix of the rulebook; it is very clear on this point.
 
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Philip Eve
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pijll wrote:

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Also, if I have and Canoe(E-30) and a Pieceworker(K-268) in play, am I able to buy an extra reed for 1 food when I land on the "fishing" action space?

No. See the appendix of the rulebook; it is very clear on this point.


I do not doubt that you are correct in quoting the rulebook, but this seems rather a counterintuitive ruling; the wording on the Pieceworker seems to make clear that the goods received do not have to be physically present on the action space to qualify (since it states a separate condition for receiving an extra Vegetable, and Vegetables are not something that are found physically present on action spaces; rather they are "received" in the sense that you receive a fixed number of them from the supply on certain action spaces).
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B C Z
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The fishing space only provides food.

The card 'Canoe' is providing the +1 food and +1 reed.

As such, Pieceworker is not activated, as the action space did not give you the wood/stone/clay/reed/grain.

As such Landing Net is not activated as the action space did not give you the reed.
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Philip Thomas
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If the Wood Distributor is in play and whoever played it has used it, placing wood on the fishing space, and I have pieceworker and go fishing, can I buy extra wood at the fishing space?

The wood is physically on the space, but otherwise it seems similar to the Canoe/Reed fishing situation.
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Randall Bart
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It appears Landing Net is poorly written. I suggest leaving that card out until it's reprinted with clearer text.
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Geoff Burkman
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thedewan wrote:
If I have a Canoe (E-30) and a Landing Net (K-126) in play and I land on the "fishing" action space, how much food and/or reed do I collect?

K-268 Pieceworker: Whenever you receive wood, stone, clay, reed, or grain from an action space you can buy 1 more of the same good for 1 food. An extra veggie costs 2 food.
E-30 Canoe: Whenever you use the "fishing" action space, you receive an additional 1 food and 1 reed.
K-126 Landing Net: Whenever you receive reed on an action space, you receive an additional 2 food. This is reduced to 1 food if you receive other building resources as well as reed.
Is the Canoe modifying the "fishing" action space to give X+1 food, and 1 reed, Thus triggering the extra 2 food from the Landing net? Or is the Canoe considered to be directly providing the reed, and not triggering the extra food from the Landing net?
Also, if I have and Canoe(E-30) and a Pieceworker(K-268) in play, am I able to buy an extra reed for 1 food when I land on the "fishing" action space?


I tend to agree with Randall on this one; the Landing Net is poorly worded. Also, Greg, note that you have misquoted the text for the Pieceworker; it should read "on" rather than "from." (For that matter, one could argue that Pieceworker is poorly worded, too!) The implication of "on" is, as B.T. points out, that the resource must physically be on the space, and therefore the Pieceworker cannot be used to boost the Canoe's reed bonus, and the Landing Net would not provide additional food.

Now, that being said, with all rules-lawyering aside, it's my sneaking suspicion that the designer intended for card effects to concatenate as much as possible. Therefore, my (irrational, perhaps) intuitive response is that, yes, the Canoe provides the extra reed and food, the Pieceworker may then purchase the extra reed for a food, AND the Landing Net would provide an extra 2 food, thanks to the reed.

And it all hinges on Melissa's translation of the original text.
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Geoff Burkman
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Philip Thomas wrote:
If the Wood Distributor is in play and whoever played it has used it, placing wood on the fishing space, and I have pieceworker and go fishing, can I buy extra wood at the fishing space?

The wood is physically on the space, but otherwise it seems similar to the Canoe/Reed fishing situation.


I would say yes, the Pieceworker can buy the extra wood, no question, because it's actually on the space. There is no semantic question involved in that particular situation.
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Sean McCarthy
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There are some other cards (don't remember which) which very clearly state that they do something when you gain something from an action space or occupation (thus specifically excluding improvements as a source). This indicates that the things you get from cards actually count as coming from the cards, and not from the action space.
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Eugene van der Pijll
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Ans there are several cards that are activated when you get something from an action, but that have clarifications in the appendix that they are activated by some cards as well. This indicates that the things you get from cards actually count as coming from the action.
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B C Z
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MisterG wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
If the Wood Distributor is in play and whoever played it has used it, placing wood on the fishing space, and I have pieceworker and go fishing, can I buy extra wood at the fishing space?

The wood is physically on the space, but otherwise it seems similar to the Canoe/Reed fishing situation.


I would say yes, the Pieceworker can buy the extra wood, no question, because it's actually on the space. There is no semantic question involved in that particular situation.


I would argue that the space does what the space does.
The Wood Distributor gave the additional wood.
The Piece Worker didn't get the wood from an action space, so it cannot activate.
 
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Geoff Burkman
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byronczimmer wrote:
MisterG wrote:
Philip Thomas wrote:
If the Wood Distributor is in play and whoever played it has used it, placing wood on the fishing space, and I have pieceworker and go fishing, can I buy extra wood at the fishing space?

The wood is physically on the space, but otherwise it seems similar to the Canoe/Reed fishing situation.


I would say yes, the Pieceworker can buy the extra wood, no question, because it's actually on the space. There is no semantic question involved in that particular situation.


I would argue that the space does what the space does.


You wood, wood ya? Why, I oughta....

Quote:
The Wood Distributor gave the additional wood.
The Piece Worker didn't get the wood from an action space, so it cannot activate.


Sneaky argument, but I don't buy it, B.T. The Wood Distributor does not "give" the additional wood; it redistributes it to the three other spaces. Once that distribution has been accomplished (at the beginning of the Work Phase, as indicated on the card), the wood is then plainly "on the action space." Since anyone who selects one of those spaces will then "receive" the wood from that space, the Pieceworker most certainly does activate, as would any other Occupation (or Minor Improvement, for that matter) that has to do with receiving wood from a given space (the Wood Buyer springs instantly to mind).

So there!
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gregory dewan
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Occupations and Minor Improvements can provide building resources, food, grain, or veggies in two ways: when they come into play, and when you place a worker on a particular action space or receive a particular resource on an action space.
I would say the rules are very clear that cards like the Canoe don't activate when you receive Goods from an occupation/improvement being played. They do not seem to be clear on how occupation/improvement cards work when they add Goods to what you get when you land on a particular action space or take a particular Good from an action space. I am hoping my original question using Canoe/Landing Net/Pieceworker as an example will receive an official clarification.
 
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Bryann Turner
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I'm bumping this thread because a nearly identical situation appeared in my game last night. The Canoe+Landing Net turned into a powerful combination. I'd just like an official ruling

I believe that Canoe and Landing Net can and should work together. The word "ON" doesn't have to literally mean the resources are physically "ON" the space. I believe the word "ON" is used more for your farmer. When you place your worker "ON" that action space, you get all the benefits from that action space. If you get extra resources that you normally wouldn't, and these resources then activate other things, so be it. You wouldn't get the benefits had you not placed "ON" that action space, so I don't see why it shouldn't occur when you do.

After all, Agricola is a game about action efficiency, and the cards are supposed to promote the core mechanic. And how often do Canoe and Landing Net appear in the same game, and the same hand? There are scores of powerful combinations: Corn Scoop + Field Watchmen + Baker; Renovator + Conservator; Undergardner + Shnaps Distiller, Taster + Lasso, Wet Nurse + Ladder, Reed Collector + Reed Hut, just to name a few off the top of my head. I don't see how this is any different. I mean, Carpenter + Ladder means you're building Wooden Huts for 3W and 1Reed. Axe + Thatcher means you're building rooms for 2W and 1R, so in a 5 player game with this combo you could have 5 rooms by the end of Stage 1 easily.

Anyway, I'd love to get an official answer to this. As much fun as Agricola is, I'd hate to play incorrectly and then when I play with another group get thrown for a loop because my interpretation was incorrect.

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Geoff Burkman
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btizo wrote:
I'm bumping this thread because a nearly identical situation appeared in my game last night. The Canoe+Landing Net turned into a powerful combination. I'd just like an official ruling


Well, I can't say my two cents is "official," but I do feel my opinion is relatively informed....

Quote:
I believe that Canoe and Landing Net can and should work together. The word "ON" doesn't have to literally mean the resources are physically "ON" the space. I believe the word "ON" is used more for your farmer. When you place your worker "ON" that action space, you get all the benefits from that action space. If you get extra resources that you normally wouldn't, and these resources then activate other things, so be it. You wouldn't get the benefits had you not placed "ON" that action space, so I don't see why it shouldn't occur when you do.


Agreed. Part of the problem is the fact that the English edition is a translation, and at this point, we don't know accurate the translation is. All props to Melissa (and whoever else may have aided her) in translating from the original German, but I have little doubt that the possibility of error exists. I also have some faith in the intent of the designer, and I strongly suspect he would support this combination as legitimate.

If we get semantically demanding (at least in this case), then I would have to argue that the Landing Net would fail to apply to the RSf space in the 4-player game, since the reed generated by taking that action is not "ON" the board, and I believe that is not what the designer intended. I believe the RSf spot is precisely the example that proves that the Landing Net/Canoe combination is legitimate. I haven't compared the English text to the original German, but am wondering if Melissa might have simply had a choice of wording in her translation, and for whatever reason chose "ON" instead of "FROM." Even that, of course, wouldn't eliminate a semantic argument in this context, but would have certainly clarified its application vis-a-vis the RSf spot.

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After all, Agricola is a game about action efficiency, and the cards are supposed to promote the core mechanic.


Yes.

Quote:
...As much fun as Agricola is, I'd hate to play incorrectly and then when I play with another group get thrown for a loop because my interpretation was incorrect.


This reminds me of a game with my crew in which Ron tried to misuse the Serf. The Serf reads as follows: "Whenever you use the "Sow and/or Bake bread" action, take 1 Grain before taking the action. Alternatively, you can exchange 1 Grain for 1 Vegetable." He mistakenly reasoned that he could apply the "alternatively" to the first clause of the first sentence, rather than the second. This, of course, would make no sense, as it would essentially allow him to swap a Grain for a Vegetable whenever he wished, rather than transact the swap before sowing and baking instead of nabbing a free Grain before sowing and baking. Of course, if he simply asked the rest of us, he would never have been disabused of his notion at the "critical" moment he attempted it, but would have understood the card properly once we were able to explain it to him.
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pijll wrote:
Ans there are several cards that are activated when you get something from an action, but that have clarifications in the appendix that they are activated by some cards as well. This indicates that the things you get from cards actually count as coming from the action.

That is the key in this situation.
If a card states "when you gain 'good' from an action" that means instantly getting the resource or animal in any possible way (e.g. gaining wood by playing the conservator, or grain from the Outrider)
However, for cards like these two that state "action space" they strictly do not work with any gain from cards.

You are right that the intent of the game is that the cards work as a "combo" but if they all did, the game would sometimes become very unfair. Imagine a Marker Woman with an Undergardener...

Edit: In the case of the wood distributor, after the wood has been distributed, even if the occupation was no longer present, the wood would still be on the Fishing action space, so the Pieceworker actually can benefit from that wood.
 
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Geoff Burkman
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Korko wrote:
You are right that the intent of the game is that the cards work as a "combo" but if they all did, the game would sometimes become very unfair. Imagine a Marker Woman with an Undergardener...


How would that be "unfair." All it would mean would be that when the owning player took the Day Laborer action, they would receive 2 food plus one Vegetable plus 2 Grain. How is that unfair? The other players are perfectly capable of noting this and taking Day Laborer for themselves if they're all that concerned about it, true? How is it any different, for instance, from playing the "Through the Seasons" variant, and taking Day Laborer in the Summer to get the free Grain?

Keep in mind that in such a hypothetical situation, the owning player already "wasted" two actions to activate these two Occupations, and is thus going to have to take Day Laborer once just to break even, and yet again to see any genuine advantage.
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Philip Eve
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It seems to me that the problem is just that the word "on" in the first sentence of the text of Landing Net ought instead to be "from". This would bring its wording into line with that of Pieceworker and other cards, and the way to treat it would become clear (i.e. analogously to the way Pieceworker is treated).

Thus it would be as follows: if player has Canoe and Landing Net when he chooses Fishing, he gets the food on the Fishing space plus 1 food and 1 reed. It makes no difference whether he has Pieceworker.
 
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MisterG wrote:
How would that be "unfair." All it would mean would be that when the owning player took the Day Laborer action, they would receive 2 food plus one Vegetable plus 2 Grain. How is that unfair? The other players are perfectly capable of noting this and taking Day Laborer for themselves if they're all that concerned about it, true? How is it any different, for instance, from playing the "Through the Seasons" variant, and taking Day Laborer in the Summer to get the free Grain?

Keep in mind that in such a hypothetical situation, the owning player already "wasted" two actions to activate these two Occupations, and is thus going to have to take Day Laborer once just to break even, and yet again to see any genuine advantage.


For starters, the difference between this and the summer DL in TTS is that in the latter case, anyone can get the grain, while in the first one taking day laborer is just a means to cut off an opponent, which, since it's just a 2-food action, is not going to happen in every single round unless someone has a quarry or so.
Trust me, having a person with a two-card combination this strong 'breaks' the game, which is why said cards don't work together at all. Been there, tried that

The game relies on combining your cards, having a solid plan, however there have to be some limits otherwise you get to the Magic the Gathering extended round1-win decks!
 
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Geoff Burkman
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Korko wrote:
MisterG wrote:
How would that be "unfair." All it would mean would be that when the owning player took the Day Laborer action, they would receive 2 food plus one Vegetable plus 2 Grain. How is that unfair? The other players are perfectly capable of noting this and taking Day Laborer for themselves if they're all that concerned about it, true? How is it any different, for instance, from playing the "Through the Seasons" variant, and taking Day Laborer in the Summer to get the free Grain?

Keep in mind that in such a hypothetical situation, the owning player already "wasted" two actions to activate these two Occupations, and is thus going to have to take Day Laborer once just to break even, and yet again to see any genuine advantage.


...
Trust me, having a person with a two-card combination this strong 'breaks' the game, which is why said cards don't work together at all. Been there, tried that


I'll take you at your word, in as much as your experience has led you, but with more than a hundred ftf games under my belt at this point, I'll admit that my evaluation of this combo is different. I simply don't see it as broken, certainly not in the way the Taster is broken, or a Winter Action in Round One.

Would that we could sit down to a game together....

Quote:
The game relies on combining your cards, having a solid plan, however there have to be some limits otherwise you get to the Magic the Gathering extended round1-win decks!


Agreed. I just don't see the Canoe-Landing Net combo as anything more than advantageous rather than broken.
 
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Bryann Turner
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In the Appendix it clearly states that the Market Women cannot be combined with Occupations. That's cut and dry, even though it should just say that on the text of the card.

The Canoe+Landing Net isn't. That's the debate. I still agree with Mister G that the combo is valid.

Even if the wording was changed from "ON" to "FROM," I'd still say the combination is valid because you're getting the reed from the space because of the Canoe.
 
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It seems the Market Woman example has led me off-topic.

My point is, if the Landing Net was to work with the Canoe, then i don't see the point in having cards that read "when you receive X from/on an action" rather than "action space".

I remember that some cards only work on stackable resources (wood cart i think) however that is a different issue.
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Heh, I just posted the "Canoe + Landing Net" rules interaction question once again to this forum, before I noticed it was already under discussion, and deleted...

I narrowly won a 4-player game 47-45 last night using this combo, but I didn't feel 100% convinced in my heart of the interaction, so I came to check. Glad to see other people find it a complex issue, and it wasn't just me being stupid.

FWIW, I don't think "reeds on an action space" can mean "physically sitting on the space". I think it's pretty clear that the Net wants to give you an extra food when you used the "Reed + Stone + Food" space in the 4-player game, or else its proviso about getting other resources than Reed from the action is ridiculously arcane.

However, it's still interesting that it says "on an action space", and not "from an action space", isn't it? Perhaps, to be really pedantic, it means "whenever you receive reeds *while your piece is sitting* on an action space". In which case the Canoe/Net combo is valid.

In addition, it's not clear from the Canoe's wording that the space ISN'T giving you the extra reed. "Whenever you use the Catch Fish action space, you receive an additional..." In my guise as the mighty Pedantor, I'd say that that doesn't imply that the Canoe gives you the bonus goods, so much as the Using The Catch Fish Action Space does.

And finally, the argument from the principle of It Makes A Better Story: there's something very delightful about the idea of a guy all tooled up with multiple rods and nets in a canoe on a fishpond, dredging up massive quantities of unsuspecting fish and roofing material with his superior technology.

In short: I feel happy, on balance, with my fish-fuelled game win last night. But official clarification would still be appreciated
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This is the only thread I can find on the subject, and it looks like this was unresolved.



I drafted Canoe and Landing Net in an iOS Agricola draft (along with Fisherman and Fishing Rod!). I was disappointed to find that the Canoe did not cause the Landing Net to give me an additional food. So I guess that's either a bug or a definitive answer to this question.
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philihp wrote:
I drafted Canoe and Landing Net in an iOS Agricola draft (along with Fisherman and Fishing Rod!). I was disappointed to find that the Canoe did not cause the Landing Net to give me an additional food. So I guess that's either a bug or a definitive answer to this question.

More evidence to support the incompatibility of Canoe and Landing Net: in the card description for Landing Net in Boiteajeux, it reads the following:

- (Landing Net) is not activated when you receive reed because of a minor improvement or occupation.
 
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