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Pursuit of Glory» Forums » Rules

Subject: GE/BU XI Army....can it enter swamps? rss

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james zajicek
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I presume that since this LCU unit is both Bulgarian and German that
it cannot enter swamps..."BU LCU's may never enter a swamp"

Is that correct?
 
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Kristian Thy
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dellchili wrote:
I presume that since this LCU unit is both Bulgarian and German that
it cannot enter swamps..."BU LCU's may never enter a swamp"

Is that correct?


EDIT: MY ANSWER HERE IS INCORRECT. Scroll down a bit to see Philip Thomas's right answer!

The note under §3.2 reads: "Dual Nationality Units: It is very important to understand that these units may be treated as belonging to either (or both) nation(s), at the player’s discretion."

So I'd say that it can quite clearly enter (as a GE LCU) but that you can't activate it as a BU LCU while in the swamp - so if it's stacked with a BU SCU you'll have to pay 2 ops.
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Tom Slizewski
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For playability's sake I hope Kristian's answer is incorrect. It's just too nitpicky and if these units are both then they are never exclusively one or the other. This would mean that dual units are exclusively the nationality they were last activated as (otherwise when the activation ends they'd be BU again and in the swamp illegally)

It appears a lot of rulings are being hastily made for this game and usually based on someone's idea of "common sense." That's not good for the game. I urge Brad and Co. to consider the game implications before making these rulings. For example the ruling (I believe since overturned) allowing CP LCUs in Egypt if the Sinai rail line has been constructed is whack from both a game perspective and historically. Ditto for allowing RB (though not on-board) SRs in areas cut-off from capital.
 
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Philip Thomas
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IQTom wrote:
For playability's sake I hope Kristian's answer is incorrect. It's just too nitpicky and if these units are both then they are never exclusively one or the other. This would mean that dual units are exclusively the nationality they were last activated as (otherwise when the activation ends they'd be BU again and in the swamp illegally)

It appears a lot of rulings are being hastily made for this game and usually based on someone's idea of "common sense." That's not good for the game. I urge Brad and Co. to consider the game implications before making these rulings. For example the ruling (I believe since overturned) allowing CP LCUs in Egypt if the Sinai rail line has been constructed is whack from both a game perspective and historically. Ditto for allowing RB (though not on-board) SRs in areas cut-off from capital.


The Living Rules will provide an opportunity to consider the rulings in the fulness of time, but swift rulings (revisable if necessary) have obvious advantages over slow rulings.

The Sinai Railroad thing was an unfortunate mistake. SR into areas cut off from the capital is however an example of an important change that was made between Paths and Pursuit: Pursuit does not have a single supply source in Constantinople, but several supply sources scattered across the Ottoman Empire. This makes for a more robust and defendable empire and is wholly a good thing.
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Kristian Thy
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IQTom wrote:
It's just too nitpicky and if these units are both then they are never exclusively one or the other.


Er, what? Read §3.2 again: "belonging to either (or both) nation(s), at the player’s discretion."

Either. Or both.

This means that each dual nationality unit can be in one of three states: Exclusively nationality A, exclusively nationality B, or both A and B at the same time. In the case of the BU/GE XI Army in a swamp, the CP player can clearly never choose to have it in two of the states since it would violate rule §3.1.1.c, so she'll have to stick with the "I am a GE unit" state until it leaves the swamp.

IQTom wrote:
This would mean that dual units are exclusively the nationality they were last activated as (otherwise when the activation ends they'd be BU again and in the swamp illegally)


Nowhere in §3.2 is activation mentioned as a factor in determining nationality. "At the player's discretion" indicates to me that the state can be switched whenever the player wants to.

IQTom wrote:
It appears a lot of rulings are being hastily made for this game and usually based on someone's idea of "common sense."


I'm not ruling by common sense, I'm basing my answer solely on the rules as written. You may disagree, but unless you come up with official text contradicting my arguments I'm disinclined to change my opinion.

As for your opinions on other rulings I may agree, but that's off-topic here.
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Tom Slizewski
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Easy there Kristian. Nowhere did I say you were wrong. I said "I hope" you are wrong, big difference. I continue to hope that rules calls such as this go in favor of playability and common sense instead of tortured logic.

I've seen other games ruined by illogical nitpickiness and would hate to see it happen to this one. The whole idea of something being able to be both things at once and yet neither of them lacks logical consistency. For example the BU/AH unit. Is it removed when Romania falls along with all the other AH units? Does it depend on what it was last activated as? Can it switch dozens of times per turn whenever the owning player wants? Can it be AH again after the "remove from the game" effect is off the stack? How do you keep track?

This issue is fairly minor. Now the RB units that can exist in multiple isolated areas at once and parachute to any occupied location on the map, that's a potential game killer for me.
 
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Philip Thomas
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IQTom wrote:
Easy there Kristian. Nowhere did I say you were wrong. I said "I hope" you are wrong, big difference. I continue to hope that rules calls such as this go in favor of playability and common sense instead of tortured logic.

I've seen other games ruined by illogical nitpickiness and would hate to see it happen to this one. The whole idea of something being able to be both things at once and yet neither of them lacks logical consistency. For example the BU/AH unit. Is it removed when Romania falls along with all the other AH units? Does it depend on what it was last activated as? Can it switch dozens of times per turn whenever the owning player wants? Can it be AH again after the "remove from the game" effect is off the stack? How do you keep track?

This issue is fairly minor. Now the RB units that can exist in multiple isolated areas at once and parachute to any occupied location on the map, that's a potential game killer for me.


Should be a game killer in Paths of Glory then as well. Hey, in Paths its arguably worse because the distances are so much bigger. In paths you could have British units in Reserve deploy to a Middle East Space (Jerusalem, say, if Allenby captured it) or a space on the Western Front. French units could deploy to Balkans spaces on top of French troops operating from Salonika as well as Western front spaces..

Its a "problem" inherent in the game system, I prefer to think of it as a feature.
 
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Kristian Thy
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IQTom wrote:
Easy there Kristian. Nowhere did I say you were wrong. I said "I hope" you are wrong, big difference. I continue to hope that rules calls such as this go in favor of playability and common sense instead of tortured logic.


Tomaytoe, Tomahtoh. I find it perfectly logical and playable. YMMV.

IQTom wrote:
For example the BU/AH unit. Is it removed when Romania falls along with all the other AH units?


No, then I (as CP player) chooses it to be a BU unit. This is also what I suspect is intended by the Stocks; it's listed under Bulgarian units in the entry list. Since AH never collapses I don't think that's an issue with regards to Serbian collapse after Romanian collapse. I do think, however, that it should be explicitly mentioned what happens to it in the case of Bulgarian collapse. This is similar to what is already done for the XI Army on page 6.

IQTom wrote:
Now the RB units that can exist in multiple isolated areas at once and parachute to any occupied location on the map, that's a potential game killer for me.


Heisenberg wrote that rule.
 
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Tom Slizewski
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It wasn't as egregious in PoG since there were fewer supply sources and so an RB SR could be assumed to be coming from your capital. You weren't SRing to spaces cut-off from your capital, where presumably the command structure is centered and where reserves are likely based.

By the time the Brits would be SRing to Jerusalem you'd likely built the Sinai Pipeline infrastructure and you would have a supply line to London.

It's been some time since I played PoG but I don't think GE units could SR from RB to Mideast if there was no land route, nor could Turks SR to Europe without tracing supply to Constantinople.

In PuG you can send some reduced Arab 0 strength units to a front and next turn have them conjour up four elite divisions to join them. Magic is the only explanation since they can even ignore non-SRable desert spaces.

Internal inconsistency may be a feature to some, but I think most wargamers want some relation to reality. Those that don't are likely playing Euros.

 
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Philip Thomas
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Yeah, I play euros

Ok, I think you are raising serious concerns here, so I'm going to start another thread to discuss the strategic redeployment controversy, which has almost no relation to the title question in this thread (which is still unanswered, although turbothy's approach seems possible to me).

edit: rereading Pog rules you are correct about the CP SR.
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Philip Thomas
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Re: GE/BU XI Army....can it enter swamps? No
Ok, people, I have found a ruling by Brad on Consimworld on the title question. He says the GE-BU XI Army can't enter swamps.

Unfortunately no reasoning is given for this. But at least you have a ruling!
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Kristian Thy
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Ok, people, I have found a ruling by Brad on Consimworld on the title question. He says the GE-BU XI Army can't enter swamps.

Unfortunately no reasoning is given for this. But at least you have a ruling!
Fair enough

I hope the living rules are updated soon-ish. There are a torrent of corrections to remember so far.
 
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Ahmet Ilpars
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This ruling is in conflict with the rule.

The note under §3.2 reads: "Dual Nationality Units: It is very important to understand that these units may be treated as belonging to either (or both) nation(s), at the player’s discretion."

So to avoid confusion I suggest to change the rule to

"Dual Nationality Units: These units are treated as belonging to either nation for activation purposes and belonging to both nations for all other purposes."
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