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Pursuit of Glory» Forums » Rules

Subject: The Strategic Redeployment Controversy. rss

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Philip Thomas
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Ok, there has been quite a bit of concern about one particular sort of situation which arises with the Strategic Redeployment as written and currently interpreted.

This situation, which has a number of guises, occurs when SR from the Reserve is possible but SR overland or by sea is not possible.

For example, suppose the British have suceeded in landing from the Adana Beach-head and have seized Aleppo. Any Turkish units south of Aleppo are now cut off from the rest of the Ottoman Empire, including the Ottoman Capital. Due to the Supply Source in Damascus, they are not OOS. More TU units may use Strategic Redeployment from the Reserve Box to join their buddies in Syria. However, any TU units in Constantinople would be unable to move to Syria by SR (or otherwise) in one SR play. They could SR to the Reserve Box and then out again later on though.

Again, the situation arises in Desert spaces which are not linked by railroad to the outside world, and in spaces which lie on the other side of a Desert without a railroad. In the Balkans, immediately after play of Bulgaria a GE unit could SR on top of the Alpenkorps (and then the Alpenkorps could move on, to avoid the stacking issue), even through there is no way to get from Galicia to Vidin without passing through enemy lines.

Curiously enough, one particular small subset of this situation is already prohibited: the situation where a power's capital is occupied by the enemy. In this case, SR from the Reserve box is forbidden, no matter where the units are going. Apart from that case, the rules allow this sort of move.

Having setup the parameters, I'll leave the discssion open for a while before sticking my oar in- my views can readily be found elsewhere anyway...


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Tom Slizewski
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The "teleporting" SR rules really rub me the wrong way for two reasons.

1. It's counterintuitive. RB units, though not on the map, have to be somewhere. Being strategic reserves, one would think they are in a rear area, likely near the capital. Strategic reserves by definition are somewhere central and safe so they can be sent to crisis points.

Reserves near the front are already represented by the LCU step-reduction rules and the replacement mechanism.

But as currently written RB units can be several places at once. The player as commander doesn't have to decide since they can appear even in isolated pockets and teleport over enemy lines.

2. It allows for ridiculous, rules-breaking, tactics. Send a couple reduced Arab unit to Egypt and, presto, next turn four elite divisions can teleport to their location, desert be damned.

 
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Eric Brosius
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This is prohibited in the Paths of Glory rules by allowing each CP nation's corps to travel to and from the RB only if they are in the part of CP territory that connects to that nation's supply center.

It's harder to write the rule for Turkey in Pursuit of Glory because there's no explicit link between units and supply centers. You could have separate RBs for various Turkish supply centers, but this would be awkward.

Philip, be sure to check out the discussion on CSW starting at the following message:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?7@1019.Q3tJeg78Nau.22@.1dd1...
 
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james zajicek
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I think SR'ing a GE SCU onto the GE alpenkorp wouldn't work right away..

If fully stacked...the GE alpenkorp would have to "move on" with (I guess) another SR , but that is impossible...

rule 14.2.1 prohibits the GE alpenkorp from using SR if solely tracing
supply to Sofia

I do not have any problem with the SR from the RB to another unit that
is in supply....(even turks in eqypt area) .
They are simply following the supply line through the desert...

Another SUC already on the map cannot do this....hence the advantage
to keeping men in the RB... In effect..men on the map are already a bit
busy..and not as capable to SR

Not really a parachuting into Eqypt...but a planned reinforcement

I just want this rule verified..one way or the other...
 
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Philip Thomas
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The Alpenkorps can't use SR, but you could SR the Bulgarian inf div that starts in Vidin, which would solve the stacking problem.

As for verification, there should be no doubt that the rules as written and currently interpreted allow this sort of move. This isn't intended to be a discussion of what the rules are, more of what they should be.

There was a Paths of Glory thread on what Reserves in the Reserve Box actually mean. I think it is clear they are not simply an extra body of troops in an unmapped location.

For one thing, if that were the case then the appearance of an SCU from the Reserve when an LCU is destroyed would be inexplicable. In fact, you can repeat the problem in those terms- in my first example with the Allies at Aleppo cutting off the TU troops in Syria an LCU could be destroyed in Syria and an SCU would "teleport" to its location. Do people objectt to that as well?
 
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Kristian Thy
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Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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I have no major problem with the rules as they are. I view the RB as an abstract measure of the strategic capabilities of the powers in the game.

The GE unit "parachuting onto" the Alpenkorps could represent further GE involvement in Bulgaria than historically was the case. (The Alpenkorps got there somehow, right? People assumedly don't object to that.) The elite SCUs sent to a depleted cavalry unit on the far side of the Suez represent the strategic reserves that deploy to reinforce the breakthrough, and so on.

By the way, it is also possible to parachute first a GE SCU and then a BU SCU on top of the XI Army
 
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Philip Thomas
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Have now read the discussion on Consimworld. Its interesting but inconclusive and also predates the decision here that SR from Reserve to Egypt is allowed for CPs (Neil persuaded Brad not to change the rules as written in this instance).

As you may know, Living Rules are being written at the moment so any input is helpful.

edit: actually there was some resistance to the Alpenkorps being in Bulgaria on Consimworld. Apparently the Alpenkorps were actually operating between Bulgaria and Austria, but that would be difficult to map cleanly.
 
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Brad Stock
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Here's an idea that I am throwing into the arena for discussion.

In order to SR into or out of the Res Box, the SCU must be able to trace supply to some supply source (from its space or its target space for deployment), as follows:

1. For CP units, must trace to that unit's capital by land.
2. For RU units, must trace to a RU Supply Source by land.
3. For BR/FR/IN/ANZ units, must trace to a BR Supply Source by land or via a port.
4. For CP smaller nations, must trace to unit's capital by land -- OR -- in the Balkans, trace to Lemnos via a Beachhead space.


Would that solve 99% of the concerns? I think it works fine from a historical perspective and a game play perspective. I am open for discussion.

Here was my suggested rewording of the rule on this in November: 13.8 SCUs and HQs can SR into the Reserve Box if able to trace supply to their nation’s capital or a controlled Supply Source usable by that unit.

THANKS FOR YOUR EARNEST INTEREST IN THIS GAME -- much appreciated.
 
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Kristian Thy
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Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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bradstock wrote:
In order to SR into or out of the Res Box, the SCU must be able to trace supply to some supply source (from its space or its target space for deployment), as follows:

1. For CP units, must trace to that unit's capital by land.


This rule would mean that you can build TU-A units in an isolated Baghdad or Damascus, but can't deploy them there if you rebuild them in RB and want to SR. I'm not convinced.

bradstock wrote:
4. For CP smaller nations, must trace to unit's capital by land -- OR -- in the Balkans, trace to Lemnos via a Beachhead space.


AP, presumably, not CP.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Hi Brad. The change you are proposing doesn't affect SR by Reserve to Desert spaces (or to spaces beyond desert spaces). If you reworded it to do so I guess it would allay the concerns of those who have them.

I think it works fine as is, being consistent with the rules for destroying LCUs etc.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Ok, the following rules change has been suggested and will probably be added to the Living Rules.

"13.1. Add two bullets to the end of the current bulleted list:

· TU and TU-A units cannot SR into Sinai or Egypt or the Sudan

· SR by a given nation from the Reserve Box is only allowed if the space is one to which a unit could have moved by SR from a supply source or capital of that nation. Dual nationality units are considered as belonging to both their nations for the purposes of this rule."

Strictly speaking, the first bullet point is superfluous, but its added for clarity.

 
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Kristian Thy
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Philip Thomas wrote:
SR by a given nation from the Reserve Box is only allowed if the space is one to which a unit could have moved by SR from a supply source or capital of that nation. Dual nationality units are considered as belonging to both their nations for the purposes of this rule."


Why isn't this bullet put under §13.8, which deals with SR from the RB?

Also I am confused by the passage:

Quote:
... from a supply source or capital of that nation.


Does this mean "from a supply source of that nation or the capital of that nation" or "from a friendly supply source or the capital of that nation"? There are nations without supply sources; is your intention to allow or disallow Greek SR to Salonika from RB when CP controls Lamia, for instance?
 
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Philip Thomas
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13,8 might well be a better place for it, thankyou.

It means a supply source or capital of that nation. Extra wording is needed to be clear about French and Italian untis (which have no supply sources or capitals).

In your Salonika example, Greek units could move by sea from Athens to Salonika, and so SR from the Reserve to Salonika would be allowed. Unless of course Athens is enemy occupied, in which case it is indeed our intent not to allow SR from the Reserve.

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