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Subject: Anyone else feel that Chapel deck wins are... lesser wins? rss

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Carc >> BSG
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I'm not saying that those who choose to use the Chapel deck strategy don't deserve their win, but I am saying that if I lose to a player who uses the Chapel deck strategy then I don't feel like I'm playing against someone who wants to play to have fun, they just want to increase their win ratio. Maybe I consider them cheap wins?

I've definitely played the Chapel decks, don't get me wrong, but after nearly 100 plays I've chosen to only use Chapels when there's a Witch in play, and I look back on my wins when I've used Chapel to create 7-card decks as not very sporting on my part.

I'll never give anyone a hard time for using it, though. After all, we've all done it and I'll wager most of us will continue to use it. And after all I can always see how close to their score I can get, and if the right cards are in play maybe even beat them.
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ejcarter wrote:
I'm not saying that those who choose to use the Chapel deck strategy don't deserve their win, but I am saying that if I lose to a player who uses the Chapel deck strategy then I don't feel like I'm playing against someone who wants to play to have fun, they just want to increase their win ratio. Maybe I consider them cheap wins?

I've definitely played the Chapel decks, don't get me wrong, but after nearly 100 plays I've chosen to only use Chapels when there's a Witch in play, and I look back on my wins when I've used Chapel to create 7-card decks as not very sporting on my part.

I'll never give anyone a hard time for using it, though. After all, we've all done it and I'll wager most of us will continue to use it. And after all I can always see how close to their score I can get, and if the right cards are in play maybe even beat them.


I'm about 25 plays behind you. I still find the chapel deck entertaining, and it comes up rarely enough that I don't mind using it on occasion. I know what you mean though. I've seen a tendency among players to veto the chapel, not because they don't enjoy it, but for variety. I have also seen players who start to ignore it on principle even when it's available.
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Maybe only play with Chapels when you are playing experienced players that are looking for a highly competetive experience. Leave them out if you are just looking to muck about for fun.

I used to play Magic with my wife and would only play "fun" decks and leave the heavy decks for tournaments and such. Maybe you can do the same with Dominion.

Unless you are playing in a tournament, it should be about frivolous fun. If you aren't really having fun, maybe you do need to talk to the people you are playing about changing it up.

 
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95% of my plays have been on BSW, and until the expansion comes out that percentage will continue to rise.
 
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Steve Bauer
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No

However some one who feels he could win within the rules and then doesn't because he doesn't like to play that way cheapens the win for whoever does win. I think if you are not playing to win you should not play, at least not with me.

I do like games without the chapel better than with the chapel and you can easily agree to not play with it.
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sbauer9 wrote:
No

However some one who feels he could win within the rules and then doesn't because he doesn't like to play that way cheapens the win for whoever does win. I think if you are not playing to win you should not play, at least not with me.

I do like games without the chapel better than with the chapel and you can easily agree to not play with it.


I play games to have fun. An occasional win is nice, but unnecessary.
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Has anyone noticed that Chapel is disturbingly similar to Lion's Eye Diamond? Both of them are very low cost, and allow you to kill your hand, resulting in many people complaining that they were useless cards, until people realized their potential.


That's why I maintain that Chapel should be +1 Card, +1 Action, you may trash 1 Card. Slower but more efficient, making it more balanced.
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ejcarter wrote:

I play games to have fun. An occasional win is nice, but unnecessary.


That fine, just don't play with me.

I also play to have fun but I feel very strongly that most strategic board games will breakdown and become pointless if all the players are not playing to win.

Dominion is not that sensitive to players making intentionally bad moves because there is limited player interaction but I have seen someone who was clearly not winning end the game with a non-scoring card instead of buying a VP card. I felt it ruined the game and I wanted my 30 minutes back.

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wodan46 wrote:

That's why I maintain that Chapel should be +1 Card, +1 Action, you may trash 1 Card. Slower but more efficient, making it more balanced.


When the designer says he changed Chapel from trashing three cards to trashing four, because only trashing three was found to be too weak in playtesting, I find it difficult to trust that your variant is "more balanced".

The Chapel is a super cool card, not because of it effects but because of the progression it has taken in people's perceptions. First stage is "WTF is this? How is this good?" Then you get to "OMG this is awesome! I'll never play anything else!" Now I'm firmly in "Oh man...Chapel in the game...what do I do?" The Chapel strategy is strong, but fragile. It's not difficult for players to disrupt it enough to beat it if they know what they are doing, and the more we play the more we know what we're doing.

What a great card!

-MMM

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I find it curious that anyone ever thought the Chapel was anything but the nuts. I immediately identified it as an extremely strong card and have always used it when it's available. Anyone who has played a CCG should know that mitigating randomness is a quick route to victory, and Chapel does that in spades.

Is it too strong? Probably. If Dominion were a CCG it would probably be banned or restricted at this point. If it's available, I think it's foolish not to pick it up though, and I don't think such wins are "tainted" in any way. The tools are available, if someone uses them to win, then they deserve that win.
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Octavian wrote:
The Chapel strategy is strong, but fragile. It's not difficult for players to disrupt it enough to beat it if they know what they are doing, and the more we play the more we know what we're doing.


And obviously it's stronger (as are all degenerate strategies) in 2-player games, and a lot of the people posting here seem to play mostly 2-player games on BSW (which to me seems like they are missing a good part of the potential of the game). And it's also stronger with fewer ways to attack that player, it seems pretty likely that there will be more ways to interfere with it when the expansions are in play, so not just will the Chapel be in play less often, but there will more often be other cards that interfere with it more directly.
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DaviddesJ wrote:
And obviously it's stronger (as are all degenerate strategies) in 2-player games, and a lot of the people posting here seem to play mostly 2-player games on BSW (which to me seems like they are missing a good part of the potential of the game). And it's also stronger with fewer ways to attack that player, it seems pretty likely that there will be more ways to interfere with it when the expansions are in play, so not just will the Chapel be in play less often, but there will more often be other cards that interfere with it more directly.


I agree. I started to play a bit on BSW, but I think the game is more fun with three or four, and everyone there only wants two player games.

Plus, from what I read, they tinkered with the randomization rules to guarantee a certain spread of low and high cards. If those were correct, I believe Chapel has a 50% chance of appearing in any BSW game (It was something like 2 cards of the 2's and 3's, and there were only 4 of those cards, one being Chapel).
 
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FuManchu wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
And obviously it's stronger (as are all degenerate strategies) in 2-player games, and a lot of the people posting here seem to play mostly 2-player games on BSW (which to me seems like they are missing a good part of the potential of the game). And it's also stronger with fewer ways to attack that player, it seems pretty likely that there will be more ways to interfere with it when the expansions are in play, so not just will the Chapel be in play less often, but there will more often be other cards that interfere with it more directly.


I agree. I started to play a bit on BSW, but I think the game is more fun with three or four, and everyone there only wants two player games.

Plus, from what I read, they tinkered with the randomization rules to guarantee a certain spread of low and high cards. If those were correct, I believe Chapel has a 50% chance of appearing in any BSW game (It was something like 2 cards of the 2's and 3's, and there were only 4 of those cards, one being Chapel).


Yeah, that's more than likely why I'm getting more... 'sensitive'... about it. It's just showing up way too many times and I'm playing against anorexic decks three or four times out of 10. Maybe I should take the time to play more setup games and see which opponents choose to include Chapel.
 
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not at all. We all like the chapel card as much as the witch or the thief. the winner is still the one that combines the chapel with the other cards the best. the chapel strategy doesn't stick out any more than several other big players among the deck
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FuManchu wrote:
Plus, from what I read, they tinkered with the randomization rules to guarantee a certain spread of low and high cards. If those were correct, I believe Chapel has a 50% chance of appearing in any BSW game (It was something like 2 cards of the 2's and 3's, and there were only 4 of those cards, one being Chapel).


It's 57% in BSW random games, and 40% in standard random games.
 
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I would personally like to try the strategy more myself. It's always lost for me. Then again, I don't play on BSW so I don't have nearly the number of plays with that card as the more prominent detractors.

I also find it strange that the majority of Dominion games on BSW are 2-player. That seems weird to me.
 
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serdudds wrote:
I also find it strange that the majority of Dominion games on BSW are 2-player. That seems weird to me.


It's true for lots of games that are more often played with more players face-to-face. Partly it's because BSW has poor mechanisms for helping people form games. Partly it's because the site seems to attract a few people who play huge numbers of games very quickly and mechanically, and that type of player seems to prefer two-player games for their predictability and lower interaction.
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It would be nice if BSW let you specify how many players you were looking for in a game. Most other online sites seem to have this feature for the creator of a game but BSW does not.
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Mikael Ölmestig
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I definately find that the chapel is more fun and more diversified than e.g. a garden strategy.
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Quote:
I also play to have fun but I feel very strongly that most strategic board games will breakdown and become pointless if all the players are not playing to win.


I think the idea is that there is a difference between someone who sits down and says, "I won't have fun unless I win this game," and someone who says, "I'll play my best and see what happens." I agree that someone throwing a game is a bummer, but is this the case if someone does not play a chapel deck if it is available?

Quote:
Dominion is not that sensitive to players making intentionally bad moves because there is limited player interaction but I have seen someone who was clearly not winning end the game with a non-scoring card instead of buying a VP card. I felt it ruined the game and I wanted my 30 minutes back.


You didn't get any enjoyment at all out of that 30 min? It all hinged on the last play? How do you know the guy just didn't screw up and make the wrong play?

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i do not understand Your point of view. I could say the same about turbo decks. The difference is that chappel decks are funnier to play against because round of chappel player last very, very shorter then turbo deck player. It is really iritating when You wait until Your oppponent go through all his deck (with little or no money inside). Whats the difference ? It all depends on what kingdom cards are on the table.
 
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sbauer9 wrote:
It would be nice if BSW let you specify how many players you were looking for in a game. Most other online sites seem to have this feature for the creator of a game but BSW does not.


If you set the 'host' option when you open a room, I believe you can control when to start the game. Then you don't have to start it until you have a third or fourth player.
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natsean wrote:
I think the idea is that there is a difference between someone who sits down and says, "I won't have fun unless I win this game," and someone who says, "I'll play my best and see what happens." I agree that someone throwing a game is a bummer, but is this the case if someone does not play a chapel deck if it is available?


I am not certain, it is most likely possible to win without the chapel, always better to be lucky than good. There are card sets that make it hard to get the chapel going and if combined with a fast game I am sure it is possible. However, with the possible exception of the Garden/Thief/+buy combination I don't think there is any reason why every player should not use the chapel if it is there.

All this is really irrelevant, the OP is not saying I don't like the Chapel strategy so I am going to try some other strategy and see how it works. I would have no problem with this and sometimes it can be very instructive to try a strategy that you don't think will work out just to see what happens. As I read it he is saying I think the Chapel is needed to win but I don't like it so I am going to lose on purpose. I would not want to play against a person who had the attitude.

In general I agree with the OPs sentiment, the game would be better without the chapel but was bothered by the concept that he was choosing not to play to win. Imagine that instead of the Chapel he didn't like it was the 6vp cards. Would you bother playing against someone who would not take the 6vp cards because he knows he needs them to win but doesn't like them?

Quote:
You didn't get any enjoyment at all out of that 30 min? It all hinged on the last play? How do you know the guy just didn't screw up and make the wrong play?


That's a little strong, I guess I have overstated it to make my point. I do enjoy the process of playing and if I am playing with friends then it is always going to be worth it.

In my example, this was a BSW game, the player had dozens of plays and the scores were so low there is no way he didn't know he was losing. He didn't want to continue the game and decided to ruin it for the rest of us.

How would you feel about a Chess player that didn't like knights and refused to play with them? I find this very similar to saying I don't like the Chapel and will not play with it. If I beat him it is meaningless as he was not playing the same game I am and if he beats me he is just showing off and making me look bad.
 
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Quote:
Anyone else feel that Chapel deck wins are... lesser wins?

Chapel wins aren't lesser wins. Winning against players like you who throws games are lesser wins.
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Golux13 wrote:
If you set the 'host' option when you open a room, I believe you can control when to start the game. Then you don't have to start it until you have a third or fourth player.


Thank you for the response. This does work but is not ideal.

You have to explain to players who only want 2er that you are waiting for three and potentially worse you get 4 when you wanted three you have to kick them and restart, which may result in to many people leaving.

You also have to start a new game to do this which is general not a big deal in Dominion but in some of the other games it is very hard to get a single game started much less 2.
 
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