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Subject: Best character? rss

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Patrick Sullivan
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I've only played the basic version so far and will be playing the standard version soon enough (I'm reading through the rules still). I really like the idea of drafting the characters at the beginning of the game but I realized I will have NO idea which character is better than which. Do you guys have any idea which character(s) is/are best?

I have a FEELING that high strength is better than high willpower but I won my last game as the wizard (or whichever guy started with lots of willpower but low strength). So I'm thinking I should just pick the character that has the highest total cubes (adding the two together). But should I be valuing strength more?

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Carlo Gozzi
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Based on a few games, the "best" character(s) are the ones with equal stats (4/4). As a 4/4 character, you are always well rounded and ready for almost everything and it's easy to adapt to many situations.

Another thing to consider is your 2 specialities and on that field the STRONGEST by very far are The Forteress & The Mystic tower.

If you quickly do the math (4/4 character with Forteress + Mystic tower), the best character the game has is: The Spellblade.

She does not give you an instant win but you surely start with an edge for sure.

sauron
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Patrick Sullivan
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Cool, thanks Carlo. I was concerned that if Strength is more valuable, then it would certainly make character selection predictable and kinda boring. But if the two are relatively equally important, then it's more fun.

Yeah, i think well balanced and total cubes will probably be the most important.

I had not considered that some specialities are stronger (Magic Tower, Fortress). I haven't looked through the cards yet and I want to avoid doing so. I was tempted to look at all the monsters and see if I'm better off with strength or willpower, but I think it'll be more fun to run into them as I go.

thanks again
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Scott Roberts
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I have played 15-20 times. The characters are equally balanced and any can win. My favorite is the Druid. The Forest Camp is my favorite guild, because it provides a lot of options for controlling your movement. being able to get quickly to the spaces you want can be key to victory. Also good are the skills that give combat advantages in certain spaces (like forests or mountains) and the bonuses apply when attacking the astral plane from one of those spaces.

I rarely buy anything from the Fortress. Many are too specialized and require you to acquire certain weapons before they become useful (like two-handed weapon or whatever). It can be chancey to get a particular weapon in hope of getting the skill or vice versa, as the item and skill cards can and do change. There are some good fortress skills(I think one good one is called Die-hard or something like that), but most I don't care for.

I am also not big on the magic tower skills either. There are some very good ones in there, but not as many as in the forest camp (IMO at least). The monestary is my second favorite guild. It has several good options and some quite powerful ones.
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Patrick Sullivan
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So it's sounding like you guys have favourite characters based more off of guilds than starting stats. Interesting.
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Scott Roberts
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The stats tend to equal out. If you character is strong, you tend to focus on strength encounters. If high in willpower, you focus on willpower encounters (or encounters that you can force into willpower battles). To me, controlling movement is more important than either, as it allows you to choose your battlefields and encounters. Choose the ones you will win or that will benefit you and avoid the others.
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David desJardins
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I tend to think that high strength is best but not by a lot. It can really help you get a fast start, though.

Bear in mind that a point of strength is about twice as hard to get as a point of willpower, this is why the starting characters are 5/2 or 4/4 or 3/6 (which all come out the same if you count each point of strength as two points of willpower).
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Patrick Sullivan
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I guess I got lucky in my first game cuz I think I had that 3/6 guy and more than 2/3rds of my battles were willpower-related. I just tore through everything, not losing a single health, and won the game quickly. There was a really weird opportunity at one point which for 4 gold, let me trade 1 willpower for 1 strength. Or, alternatively, for 7 gold, 1 strength for 3 willpower.

I ended up going for the first one (deciding to try and balance out my character), but those choices really made me question if strength is much better because of those conversion rates. I really don't know.
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Carlo Gozzi
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According to the answers we should gather all and play it out over a game if we can ever have the chance.

As far as movement is concern, with a little gold you can bypass moving problems wihtout too much trouble. But in the end you have to find a solution to bypass very strong skills like: curse, prayer, concentration, toughness (very strong and under estimated) or time loop.

The Magic tower is very useful in game but in the final battle, the Forteress & Monastery skills tends to be the winning factor.

My top 3 skills would be:

1- Toughness
2- Concentration
3- Curse

But again it's only my opinion and with all our different point of views, that's what gaming is all about... play it out over games and see what happens!

sauron
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David desJardins
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Vorpalgens wrote:
As far as movement is concern, with a little gold you can bypass moving problems wihtout too much trouble.


Of course, with the gold you save, you can just buy skills from other guilds.
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Patrick Runyan
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I don't have a favorite character but I think 4/4 is actually the worst combination. 4/4 means you are not good at killing anything when you start. At least if you have a high strength or a high will power you can kill half of the stuff on the board easily. Once you do that, you get money and xp, which makes you more powerful so you can kill the other half of the stuff easily.
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Eugene Hung
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Surprising, I think Toughness is not very good. You really don't want to be losing or drawing fights. Turning a loss into a draw is not really that much better with all the ways to heal. It's not useless, but I'd rather have Stamina for a similar cost.
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Patrick Sullivan
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Ok, I'm going to play my first standard game tonite (I finally finished the rules). I have a feeling that boosting your strength is A LOT harder than boosting your willpower which maybe leads me to think that high strength is seriously good. But i dunno.
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Carlo Gozzi
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eyhung wrote:
Surprising, I think Toughness is not very good. You really don't want to be losing or drawing fights. Turning a loss into a draw is not really that much better with all the ways to heal. It's not useless, but I'd rather have Stamina for a similar cost.


Toughness is very good in the final battle... PvP as it can give you the edge. I'm basing this upon my group's experiences when we played the game. Besides that it is useful as it can help when you get over a bad roll and not losing too much time recovering. In the end, yes it's not the best skill the game has to offer but to me it is the most useful skill and thus earned my #1 spot.

Black barney wrote:
Ok, I'm going to play my first standard game tonite (I finally finished the rules). I have a feeling that boosting your strength is A LOT harder than boosting your willpower which maybe leads me to think that high strength is seriously good. But i dunno.


Your assesment is correct but i stand by my choices: 4/4 is better to start with as Spellblade or Paladin will give you an edge. Maybe one day we could arrange a/some game(s) between our groups since we live only 90 mins away from each other

sauron
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Eugene Hung
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The most useful skill? It's clearly not Toughness -- for example, Concentration from the same guild is one of the best skills in the game, because you can use it all the time for a powerful effect. Obviously, Concentration costs 8 and Toughness costs 3, so it's not a fair comparison, but if Concentration were less useful, then why would it cost so much more? I know if I went to the Fortress with 8 XP and Concentration and Toughness on display, it would be silly for me to take Toughness.

Stamina, for the same XP cost, is far better. The ability to move 2 spaces using mana instead of gold, or 3 spaces at all so that you can pick up that nice opportunity before someone else gets it is huge. In general any skill that improves your movement ability, gives plusses in combat, or rerolls dice, is worth getting. Sure, Toughness has its uses in PvP, but in my opinion, the key to winning is frequency of encountering favorable opportunities. So any skill that improves your ability to pick favorable opportunities (movement) or makes opportunities more favorable (plusses, dice rerolls) is great. Turning a loss into a draw is really not so good -- the key loss from losing a combat is losing the turn with no gain, not the health loss. (Although health loss does make more opportunities unfavorable, it's much more easily restored than losing a turn).
 
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David desJardins
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eyhung wrote:
The most useful skill? It's clearly not Toughness -- for example, Concentration from the same guild is one of the best skills in the game, because you can use it all the time for a powerful effect.


I'm sorry, but this is really a silly comment. Obviously the question (and ranking) is of the skills relative to their cost. The OP is saying these are good skills because they give you a lot for what they cost. No one is arguing that you would rather have a 3 XP skill than a 9 XP skill, just that the 3 XP skill is a greater bargain.

Quote:
Sure, Toughness has its uses in PvP, but in my opinion, the key to winning is frequency of encountering favorable opportunities.


The question of whether it is more important to emphasize skills that will help in the final PvP, or to emphasize skills that will help before that stage, obviously is one that is hard to answer objectively. Different people will have different opinions, and the balance will shift as the game goes on. I do think there are some skills that can make a huge difference in PvP, enough to make them very important even if they give you not too much help before then.
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Carlo Gozzi
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Thx David,

You did speak my mind on this!

Obviouly in the end, we should play it out and see what happens. But David is correct... it all comes up to the play style of each person.

sauron
 
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Eugene Hung
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DaviddesJ wrote:
eyhung wrote:
The most useful skill? It's clearly not Toughness -- for example, Concentration from the same guild is one of the best skills in the game, because you can use it all the time for a powerful effect.


I'm sorry, but this is really a silly comment. Obviously the question (and ranking) is of the skills relative to their cost.


I find it unusual that perhaps the most literal person I've ever read is calling me out for a "silly comment" on something that was NOT obvious. Here are all the relevant passages in this thread that he wrote:

Vorpalgens wrote:

But in the end you have to find a solution to bypass very strong skills like: curse, prayer, concentration, toughness (very strong and under estimated) or time loop.

The Magic tower is very useful in game but in the final battle, the Forteress & Monastery skills tends to be the winning factor.

My top 3 skills would be:

1- Toughness
2- Concentration
3- Curse


and:

Vorpalgens wrote:

Toughness is very good in the final battle... Besides that it is useful as it can help when you get over a bad roll and not losing too much time recovering. In the end, yes it's not the best skill the game has to offer but to me it is the most useful skill and thus earned my #1 spot.


Nowhere here does he say that Toughness is a better bargain than Concentration -- a literal reading of the first quote has him saying that Toughness > Concentration, period, and the second that it's "most useful" (whatever that means -- I myself _use_ Concentration a lot more than Toughness!). In the portions of my reply you didn't reference, I gave him some credit for talking about the relative bargain, by bringing up Stamina v. Toughness. But in case he truly believed that Toughness > Concentration (I've seen people claim crazier things, as you have seen on the TtA forums), I wanted to disabuse him of that.

DavidDesJ wrote:


The question of whether it is more important to emphasize skills that will help in the final PvP, or to emphasize skills that will help before that stage, obviously is one that is hard to answer objectively. Different people will have different opinions, and the balance will shift as the game goes on. I do think there are some skills that can make a huge difference in PvP, enough to make them very important even if they give you not too much help before then.


This, I agree with.
 
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Carlo Gozzi
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Just to be clearer as it's beginning to go to far for nothing...:

IN MY OWN OPINION:

YES thoughness is BETTER than concentration / or curse for may reasons:

- Best lasting / useful skill overall (PvP & in game)
- Real bargain quality / price / usefulness like
- Will always help and has NO DIRECT COUNTER MEASURES as in "if" opponents ends up having a confrontation concentration VS curse then both skills are USELESS even prayer can help a little there too.
- Gives you a chance to avoid disaster when you lose a combat and thus save valuable time

Of course Concentration / Curse will clearly be better than thoughness during the game (and they do are good too in PvP) but you have a possibility to bypass them compare to thoughness you cannot bypass it.

So overall, i stand by my choice that Thoughness is a better skill in the end.

I'm sorry, i do have a real problem of expressing myself (most of the time, and even in my main language) but i hope it's clearer now. I do respect the opinion of everybody even if i might not agree with them as i hope that you respect mine too. Let's face it: we all love gaming and have diffrent opinions / strategies and that's where all the fun came in... facing each other and see who's right and who's not and respectfully talk about it afterwards kinda like we are doing right now unfortunatly without having the chance to play against each other.

Regards,

sauron

 
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David desJardins
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eyhung wrote:
I find it unusual that perhaps the most literal person I've ever read is calling me out for a "silly comment" on something that was NOT obvious.


Well, I still think it's obvious that any listing of "top skills" incorporates cost as a factor in what makes them good. I guess I'll leave it at that.
 
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Eugene Hung
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Vorpalgens wrote:


YES thoughness is BETTER than concentration / or curse for may reasons:

- Best lasting / useful skill overall (PvP & in game)
- Real bargain quality / price / usefulness like


I am no longer debating that you hold these opinions. But this is merely assertions, not proof. I can say the same about Stamina for bargain, and Concentration/Curse for the first point [see the third point].

Quote:

- Will always help and has NO DIRECT COUNTER MEASURES as in "if" opponents ends up having a confrontation concentration VS curse then both skills are USELESS even prayer can help a little there too.]


Sophistry. If I take Concentration, I am always increasing my win chances 10-20% in a Battle of Strength, because if my opponent has Curse, I'd be re-rolling my die twice for the worst result. Unless the battle outcome is pre-determined, it always helps your Battle of Strength chances to have Concentration -- it may not result in extra rolling, but your chances ALWAYS go up, either because you are re-rolling, or you are preventing bad rerolls.

Under your argument, I could say Toughness "doesn't work" when I fail to lose a battle. Clearly it has helped, by lowering the probability of a "loss" outcome -- just because a loss didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't work. So, we agree Toughness has "utility", but I say the utility that it offers is far less than you think. I end up in a position to actually benefit from Toughness approximately 2-3 times a game, at most -- I simply don't initiate combats where I'm not at least +1 to the dieroll, unless I get ambushed by a strong face-down adventure such as Rock Giant. When you are fighting at +1, the loss chance is merely 28%. And usually after the first 10 moves I'm fighting at +2 (16.67%) or +3 (8.33%). You simply shouldn't be losing combats that much to be able to gain from Toughness.

Quote:

- Gives you a chance to avoid disaster when you lose a combat and thus save valuable time


It's rarely a disaster to drop to 3 Health. It's a disaster to drop to 1 or 0 Health, and even then three Chance cards, the Monastery, or the Forest Camp can help. With my focus on combat and movement buffs, it's usually easy to recover from a loss. I'd still much rather have Stamina. You have yet to argue against the benefits of Stamina:

- Gives you the chance to triple your movement towards a key opportunity and save valuable time, at the cost of 1 magic (which is even more easily recharged than health)
- Guarantees the opportunity to reach at least 7 squares out of 20 instead of 5 for minimal cost on every turn. (A 40% increase).
- Enables you to avoid bad opportunities for good ones.
- Allows you to spend mana instead of gold for movement.

I estimate I can apply Stamina to my benefit approximately once / 4 turns, and that these benefits can be significant (being first to the Golden Fish, or many of the other +cube opportunities). Doing this twice will give you the equivalent of Concentration (which improves odds approximately like getting +2 on the die), and it's "not blockable". Sure, if Toughness and Stamina come up in the endgame, I could see Toughness > Stamina ... but if they come up at any other time, I'd always pick Stamina over Toughness.

I would like to propose the next time you play, to start one guy with Toughness and the other guy with Stamina. I think you will find the Stamina player will have a much easier time!
 
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